10/20 online hand

[Hawkeye27]

Juicy 10/20 online game with about 5 or so seeing the flop on average.

This game was probably too aggressive for this, but I limp UTG with A8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. 2 MPs limp, LP raises, button and BB call, I call, MP limp-reraises, everyone calls.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB bets out, I call, everyone calls.

Turn: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets out, I fold.

How did I play this hand?

[Hawkeye27]

BB bets the turn, I fold, MP1 calls, MP2 raises (whew, good fold, right?) LP folds, BB and MP1 calls. River is a blank, check, check, bet, call, call. BB-J8, MP1-K8, MP2-97. OMFG!! I just threw away a $420 pot when I was leading the whole way!!! $#@#%&*&^%#@MOTHER!@$%&**(*&^^%!!!

My thoughts: On the flop I thought I was beat. On a paired board I thought there'd be maybe 1 or two more callers. With low pair, an overcard, and running flush draw I decided to try and stay in cheaply. Is this a hand where the size of the pot demands a raise here?

When EVERYBODY called on the flop I figured there had to be a Q out there, so when no club, A, or 8 came, I folded.

[Schneids]

Raise the flop or fold. It's a big pot that you have a piece of -- find out where you're at and give everyone else behind you a decision. The turn is easier to play when you don't have everyone and their mother still to act behind you, and when you've taken control of the hand.

[Duke]

If this hand was on party I think you made a mistake.

They're not really people. Remind yourself of that. Though there are notable exceptions, you'd be surprised at the mental image I have of the average party poker baboon. But then again, they're probably just stupid bots. No self-aware being could play the hands that they do like they do.

~D

[Ulysses]

[DocHollyday]

Hawk,

This game seemed to be a pretty loose agressive one. In such type of game I'd recommend to fold your hand preflop utg, because you have to count with a raise, and you certainly don't want to play it for two bets, right?

However, I think after the flop with that many players and the action, I'd fold your hand too, you have no idea where you stand, you may get raised by someone acting behind you. You were good this time, but in longterms I think your beaten more often, than you win.

[Hawkeye27]

Even though you can find loose games at these levels, they are almost always aggressive. This one was, I knew it, and I made a loose UTG call. No getting around it. I agree the flop should be raise or fold, probably fold. I really was shocked when the BB led out, and wasn't mentally prepared when the action was thrust upon me. Lesson learned.
Thanks for your response.

[Hawkeye27]

Thanks for your response Duke. I agree with your asessment of the players. What was my mistake? How would you play the hand against 5 players?

[ZeeJustin]

Easy flop raise IMO.

[Duke]

I'd have raised the turn, and seen where everyone was at. If they all call, then I'm looking to value bet the river too unless a card over 8 hits, or value bet it regardless if I end up being HU with the bettor.

It can change to a check call on the river depending on who else is in the hand at that point. Or even a check-fold if a K hits and thre's a bet and a raise after you check.

The error I was talking about is just that I see no reason for you to think that your hand is not best at this point, though you may not be a huge favorite against the field. So... time for a raise!

~D

[elysium]

hi hawkeye
if you are exceptionally good at reading your LHO's pre-flop and exceptionally good post flop, you can make these type unorthodox entries with Axs. you really need perfect conditions though and your raises must be getting a lot of respect. so......under perfect conditions when you are controlling the table, you can raise in with the Axs. again, this is not something that you should try without knowing for a fact that the left won't reraise you. and you can make this play for increased future action. and no, 2+2 really frowns on this advice and to tell the truth, i'm not so sure about it myself. i do raise in though occasionally in the 20-40 from UTG with this type hand if i'm not going to get reraised and my bets are getting lots of respect. i'm looking for 2 weak tights to call and then i represent the top card on the flop hoping to get the fold. but someone else making this play is almost certain to misplay it. and judging from the reraise you suffered, you did not have anywhere near a handle on this one. you must never get raised or reraised if you decide to come in with it. if you do get raised, then you misjudged the situation.

can you ever be certain that your LHO's won't raise you when not getting raised is so critical? yes you can. i know when i'm going to get raised. it's a strong area in my game that i've developed over time. yes, i've been a little lacksidasical about the the SB. the SB has caught me speeding a couple times. but i'm working on it. in this hand, you were destined to get raised. you never should have entered in with that from that position under those circumstances. if your raises are getting called and better, and they are, you don't need to make the fancy with the Axs. how does one tell whether or not the LHO's are strong? there's a way to tell. it's called radar. but you must be able to decipher from blips first. and this hand tells me that you don't know from blips. because you have no screen. so keep your fight at the simple stick and stone level for now, until you get your radar about you. betting Axs in the dark is foolish. any opponent with so much as a nite lite is bound to raise or reraise you.

i'm adding this on with edit;
how you handle the flop is not the important issue. the main issue is all concentrated on the pre-flop. you got raised so you lose this one. it's lost pre-flop. if you're going to play this, then play it but play it right by coming in with a raise or don't play it at all. you are not rooting to flop two of your suit. what good does that do? if you bet, everyone will fold, and if you check, it will get checked around. so you never get correct odds to come in with this from that position. the only reason to enter in with it is to further dominate the table when you're steam-rolling, but again, the left must be weak tight. the flop is a clear fold. and yes i read some of the advice about raising to take control etc, but from that position with that holding, the only possible opportunity to take control was pre-flop. against no more than two opponents, one of whom you suspect has the Q, if played right pre-flop, you raise the flop and then get a free river show-down. but now, against all those opponents, you can fold. so, in hindsight, you can see how you played this hand from the beginning as though you wanted to flop solidly and build a big pot. but that's impossible with that holding. you simply won't get any action if you flop solidly. and since you allowed in so many behind you pre-flop, and got raised, even though you might have the lead, you're out of position yet again and must therefore fold. if you call the flop, you will just get raised again.