A training wheels off post?

[PokerNoob]

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Hero has J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is BB. Button and SB are very loose, very passive calling stations. No notes on poster.

CO(poster) raises, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls. 7:1 obvious call here with a poster/raiser and two calling station coldcallers? Obviously looking for a flush or straight draw.

Flop(8 SB): 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls. 2 opponents and a flush draw closing the action standard stuff. A little concerned that SB might checkraise the turn.

Turn(5 1/2 BB): 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, Hero calls. Ditto.

River(8 1/2 BB): J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB folds, Hero calls. Must call top pair here, correct?


Right cards against right opponents? I don't know what to make of poster raisers. This guy actually had a high pocket pair.

[Ed Miller]

Checking and calling does not get the money in limit hold 'em.

[fluff]

You call the other players calling stations, but let's examine your play:

PF: call
Flop: check, call
Turn: check, call
River: check, call

Bet that flop with 2 overcards and a flush draw. If it's just called, you can bet out the turn again when nothing really changed. If at the flop it's 3-bet back to you, at least you can narrow down what CO has.

[PokerNoob]

Sorry to resurrect this from yesterday but I have a significant philosophical question. IF the players behind you are passive calling stations and you have flopped a fourflush in this situation with this many callers and not that high of cards in your hand, why get aggressive, particularly on a paired board?


Flop: If you bet and are raised by preflop raiser with a real hand, you stand to lose the callers (but perhaps also their overcards) and the extra overlay on your draw, and you've put more money in to see the river. Things could be even worse if somebody flopped trips and its two back to you. However, if you bet and the preflop raiser is caught with nothing, he will probably call here anyway which is good. If you don't bet, preflop raiser is most likely going to bet for you, the callers will call and you are maximizing your pot for when you hit the flush. Downside: overcard outs are live.

Turn after rag: 1) You bet out after betting out with no resistance on flop and take it down. A good outcome. 2) You bet out and are called or raised. A very good outcome if the river is a heart, but I don't think you win unimproved. 3) You check call after resistance and hope for a river heart. Neutral.


So by being passive, you maximize your pot for when you do hit the flush. You minimize your loss for when you don't make the flush. By being aggressive, you may win a smaller pot unimproved, win a smaller pot when you hit, or lose more bets total. So the ultimate question is "is the average net outcome better with the passive strategy or the aggressive strategy"? Obviously higher pocket cards tip the scale in favor of aggression. But where would the line be? Where is JT on that scale?

[Barry]

You forget 1 very important point. If you bet and they don't have anything much, they fold and you win even if you don't get there.

[pudley4]

Checkraise the flop. Bet the turn (if you weren't raised on the flop). Maybe you can knock him off overcards.

River - since you hit, probably check-call. If he hasn't folded his big PP yet, he probably won't fold on the river. He may check it through. He also may bet a hand like AK or TT.

[PokerNoob]

No, I'm accounting for that in the "win a smaller pot unimproved" term of the equation.

The more I think about this, the more I think there are three important points in this problem.

1) A preflop raise and calling station coldcallers. This seemingly reduces the chances of folding everybody out with aggression. Perhaps a flop checkraise, turn bet gets rid of the coldcallers, but not an overpair, which is very possible given the preflop raise. There is also no play for a free card. The benefit to having the calling stations is that they may keep right on calling if the 3rd heart hits the turn and no aggression is shown.

2) The overcard situation vs. Jack high. If you can't fold everybody out, you've got to somehow improve, even if they don't have much either. Flush is the best chance here because even a pair of Jacks with a ten kicker seems very vulnerable. If you held, say, an Ace or King then you can feel better about additional non flush outs and can play aggressively.

3) Since you need to improve, see if you can do it cheaply. This points to the passive strategy with the Jack high pocket, fourflush flop.


I'd really like to hear what others think about this. I won't be surprised if it nets out to "if you can't play it aggressively and be prepared to take your lumps, don't play it".

[rigoletto]

You have 15 outs to a likely winner and clueless calling stations!!!!

Checkraise the river and bet the turn. This way you get overcards out in case you hit J or T on the river, you get money in the pot for when you hit and you just might take it down on the turn!

Flush is the best chance here because even a pair of Jacks with a ten kicker seems very vulnerable. If you held, say, an Ace or King then you can feel better about additional non flush outs and can play aggressively.

This is weak thinking. Your kicker doesn't matter here since only flush overcards are likely to stay till the end.

[bdypdx]

I totally agree with pudley4.

You're in the pot with JTh and you got a flop you should like. 2 of your opponents are weak calling stations. You don't know about CO, but he can raise preflop in his position with a pretty big range of hands. CO may have been out to charge the flush draws on the flop...and fine charge me...but you'd find out something about his hand with a flop check-raise.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my thinking is to put chips into that pot with those players. If you get resistance, then think about lightening up.

[Arcane]

talk about passive calling stations
after the raise pf and the large pot size, check raise the flop then take the lead on the turn, after all you want to win the pot now