Semi-bluff turn raise, river bluff

I'm in a fairly good game and the most aggressive player in the game is on my right. I'm in the BB with 6d8d. Everyone folds to the button (a rare event) and the button JUST CALLS. This cardroom has a drop, so I really HATE it when people just call on the button first in!!! Unfortunately, it's against my general principles to educate the clueless as to what the best strategies are for poker, so he'll have to continue to keep on making those horrible plays for now. The SB raises the pot. He would raise with anything from pocket aces to 92o, so I call it, as does the button. My pre-flop call here may have been too loose, opinions? I thought that my playing ability would make up for some of it, I would likely get paid off pretty well if I flopped a good hand, and I was happy to play against these two players.


The flop is 5 7 A rainbow with one diamond. SB bets and I call, button calls.


Turn is the 2s, no flush possible. SB bets and I semi-bluff raise with eight outs. Button folds and SB calls.


River is the 9h. SB checks. I can't win in a showdown, and the chance he will fold is quite reasonable. He's not a calling station, but he does play draws aggressively, although I can't imagine what draw he might have had. It seems more likely that he had a pair, but less than aces. I am hoping my raise on the turn convinced him that I have an ace. I decide to try a bluff and bet, because it's the only way I could win the pot. He hesitated for quite a while, then folded. The button said something to the effect of "you had the ace, eh?" and I just let them think I did. This wouldn't have been a good time to show my bluff.


I did win the pot, but that doesn't mean I necessarily played it optimally. So put me on a pedastal, or chastize me and cast me out, it's up to you. How was my play on this one? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Super-Genius? Super-Magoo?


Dave in Cali

dont you have a straight here?

the nuts of the hand?

how could you not win a showdown?

Um...if I read your story right you had the absolute nuts on the river.

How can you lose a showdown?

It's not hard to bluff when you have the nuts.

I think the semi-bluff is a marginal play. Your raise is essentially there to test out your opponent and try to get him to fold if he has less than an ace. Not bad. But you have two opponents, and I figure one of them for the ace to stay in on a rainbow 57A flop. What else would they have and call? 87s, 65s?


So, you take a positive expectation draw and put yourself in risk of going against a set or two pair, who will inevitably reraise, and then you will have paid three bets. But you get lucky and your opponents not only don't have aces, but one calls. This is a horrible play.


Now you are on the river. SB has called. Can you really expect that he will call one big bet and then fold to another? That would be a truly horrible play by your opponent, so you can't count on it.


Of course, you bet the river and he did lay down. So your opponent made two mistakes...he called a raise on the turn and then folded to a single bet on the river. I figure him for pocket pair. You got lucky. BTW...if the opponent is as bad as you say and would raise w/ 92o in SB, then usually he will call one bet at the end too. Bluffs don't normally work against morons in my experience.


Just my opinion,

Mojay

You 86s looks real "weak" with a board of:


5,7,A,2,9


I'll just assume the river was something other than a 9. Let's make it a 3. Bluffing is you're only hope to win so it's good bluff.


But...you played the rest of the hand very weakly.


86s is not a hand which you can call a raise with. It's even worse since there are only two other players contesting the pot. You say "I thought that my playing ability would make up for some of it". While I'll accept you were a better player than your two opponents, you may be getting into a dangerous habit. As soon as some players start becoming good, they over-estimate their abilities and convince themselves that they can make loose/bad plays and make up for it later. The result is you start losing money because you keep making bad calls with weak hands. Remember, most of your opponents are weak because they make calls with weak hands. Don't start doing this yourself.


Once you've made your pre-flop call and get and open-ended straight draw, you should be raising the flop instead of just calling. You may be able to win immediately. It's likely you will be checked to on the turn when you can bet again to win without a showdown.


I'm reading John Feeney's "Inside the Poker Mind" (Very good so far) and there was a section that I found very interesting. John often identifies weaker players by what hands they cold-call raises with, especailly raises from early position players which usually aren't blind steals. Since you need a stronger hand to call a raise with than you need in order to make the raise yourself, John notices when the callers turn over hands like QJo and A7s. Both of these hands should be too weak to call pre-flop raises from solid early postion players (86s isn't even close). I think I've made MANY loose pre-flop calls and am now re-thinking how I play against raises in front of me.

Given Dave in Cali's initial description of his opponent, I would have called with 8-6 suited too. Actually a 3-bet here might have gotten the pot heads-up possibly?


Anyway,


Since you have position on the SB. I would have raised/re-raised the flop. You could possibly take it down on flop, also can give yourself a free card on turn if need-be.


Since you didn't raise the flop, the turn seems like an excellent opportunity to try and take the pot down. ( assuming your opponent doesn't have an Ace. Given your description of your opponent, there is no reason to think he has one )


I assume Dave mis-typed his post and a 9 didn't come on the river, so since he raised the turn, for one more bet and that pot I don't see anything wrong with bluffing. It worked...


Also, why show your bluffs till you have too? At that point, make them work to your advantage. Never show cards till you have to.


I agree with Dynasty, that too many people call raises with hands they shouldn't. In this circumstance I don't see anything wrong with it.( given description of opponent. Hell I might have 3 bet to get it heads up depending on button player )

Against a decent opponent(s) though, calling with 6-8 becomes questionable.


Later,

CJ

I'm assuming the river wasn't a 9. And that you misseed on the river.


I don't like the preflop call. I see your point that he could raise with alot of hands and your a better player than your opponents, but I still don't like it. One of the reason your a better player than these opponents is that you have enough sense to not get invovled with marginal hands for a raise in short handed pot. Especially with the limper on the button. What is that all about? That could be a big hand like AA or KK. It might not be, but alot of players will do this because they don't want to just win the blinds. I very leary when people limp like that.


That being said. If I did play the hand, I would raise right on the flop. By just calling, if people are weak you give them a chance to stay in and catch something on the turn. Your representing an A. And if he raised with hands like KQ,KJ and others he'll probably fold on the flop. Maybe even middle to big pairs. If I get the button to fold , I would follow up with a bet on the turn. As he might want to see what you do there. And he may now fold other pairs. If he calls again. Then its a judgement call whether to bluff the river. If you think he's fishing, then bluff. If you think he's taking a stand with a pair check.

Dave's hand is 6d8d. Board is 5 7 A 2 9. Granting that pre-flop is too loose, IMO, Dave has the nuts, so what is the concern of not winning the pot? Am I missing something or there is a typo on the river card?