two all-ins on a flush draw

[creedofhubris]

I'm slowly learning this crazy game, and I feel like all-in play is something I'm still struggling with. In both of these hands, I ended up making the flush and looking like a clever gambler, but I wonder what the consensus is. The game is 2/4 NL, $200 max.

Hand #1

Most players see the flop for one bet. Board is
A/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I'm on the button holding J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif

Lots of action on the flop; it comes around once with two raises, I call; it comes around again with two more raises -- a total of three different people have raised the pot, and just before I act, cutoff player has gone all-in. At this point, I have $120, and there is approximately $370 in the pot.

My spot conclusions -- three different raisers means that none of them are on the flush draw, therefore my hand is good if a club comes. (I know that trips reduce my chances of winning with a flush, but in the heat of the moment I couldn't recall the exact numbers.) Furthermore, my assessment of the other players is that at least one and most likely both will join in the fun, giving me better odds.

As it turns out, all four people ended up going all-in. Two flopped straights and one flopped two pair. Two pair does not make a boat, club falls, my hand is good for a $700 pot, and my move is much discussed in the chat area afterwards.

Hand #2:

I'm in the cutoff holding 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif. Many players see the flop for a $4 bet, I limp in.

Flop is:
T/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to a weak mp player, who makes a moderate bet. An extremely aggressive player, who likes to bluff and is on a short stack, makes it $50. I'm next to act. I've got about $140, initial better has me covered, short stack has about $40 left.

Noticing my pair as well as my draw, I immediately decide that I've got the odds and go all-in. MP better calls, short stack folds (!). Club comes on the turn, and my hand is good.

MP had K/images/graemlins/club.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[1800GAMBLER]

If anyone flamed you in the chat for the first hand say, 'how can i played it wrong with i have all your money?' You played it right, getting all in against 3 other players means you are making money on every dollar you get in the pot. ... unless two were short stacked.

2nd hand i push in on the flop while i'm a favourite.

Well played in both.

[crockpot]

i would strongly consider folding the first time it comes around to you on the flop, although it depends on the bet sizes. if they were min bets, you could call. but if they were reasonably-sized bets, you should fold because you may only have eight outs, and you are not hitting to the nuts. if someone else has a higher flush draw, you will lose your stack if you hit a club, and a higher flush draw is not that uncommon a hand when two people have bet and raised before you.

having called the first time, i think you probably can call the all-in on the return action. again, it depends somewhat on how big the initial bets were.

on hand 2, i'm not so sure you have great odds here. at best you have 14 outs, but you will quite often have between 8 and 11. unless both opponents call (unlikely with this action), the only reasonable hand you really want to get all in against is a higher flush draw, and even then he has 13 outs against you and two chances to hit. i see no problem passing this even though you have seemingly hit a great flop.

if you do get two people to call your all-in, you are still not out of the woods. very likely there will be a higher flush draw and a better made hand, and you will be in big trouble.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
My spot conclusions -- three different raisers means that none of them are on the flush draw, therefore my hand is good if a club comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The biggest flaw I see in both of these hands is your assumption that you will win if you hit your flush. Especially so in this first hand, where you typed the statement above. With 3 raisers I figure one of them for the nut flush draw a significant portion of the time. You could easily be against two pair, a set, and a higher flush draw, or any other such combination where you're drawing stone cold dead.

And on the second hand, I also like it when I flop a pair plus a flush draw. However, with two opponents, you will often be in the awful position of having 0 to 5 outs, instead of 14. I like the raise you made. If you're going to play, you'd like to get it heads-up, because against one opponent you're either the favorite or not all that far behind.

Whether you should've played these hands as you did, I'm not sure. But you're definitely discounting the risk way too much.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Indian Ocean]

both very well played hands..