Aborted Steal attempts ?

[Hotrod0823]

This seems to be happening to me a lot of late. Not that it is really anything new but I am noticing it more.

Here is the scenario: 2 table SnG with a 10.00 buy in.

Mid-Late Tourney with blinds 50/100 or higher and short handed tables. Most players remaining have average stacks ~2000 or so with no real leaders.

I get dealt mediocre hands like KQx or A4s or the like on the button or in some cases in the SB.

It gets checked to me and I will raise to 300 or so 3xBB. Obvious Steal attempt? Is a limp in this case better? Anyway, I have had a few times where I get played back at all-in and I have to fold.

This happened late in a 2 table yesterday. It was down to 3 handed and it was the 2 short stacks vs. a large stack with 11000. I had 5000 in 3rd. I tried limping from the SB and the BB and big stack would reraise me all in. I tried raising 4xBB and he reraised me all-in.

What is the best move? Pushing in on him and risking third?

Finally I got fed up and called with J10s. I realized I should've waited for a better hand but wanted to make a stand. I got lucky and hit a Jack on the flop and took down his A4o.

Do I just need to tighten up in those situations or take a shot and hope for the best?

Thanks

Hotrod

[CrisBrown]

Hiya HotRod,

This is one of my banes as well. If you have a big, scary stack, you can steal with relative impunity. With a middle stack, you still have to steal, but you have to tread with caution because oftentimes the big stacks will play back at you with any Ace, for the chance of knocking you off.

One way to avoid this is to vary your steal positions. If you limit yourself to stealing from the button or SB, you have a couple of problems. First, you get fewer chances to steal, because often someone will have raised ahead of you. And second, when you do get a chance because it has been folded around to you, it does read as an obvious steal and people will play back at you. This is especially true if the big stacks are to your left. If you vary your steal positions -- UTG, MP, etc. -- your LP steals will be less obvious, and will get more respect.

Finally, the more often you steal, the more likely you are to get played back at (again, unless you have a monster stack). Assuming no strong hands to play, you'd like to steal about three times per two orbits, so you stay ahead of the blinds and gain a little. You can adjust that down a bit when you catch strong hands, as there's no reason to take chances with trash hands when you're picking up chips with legitimate ones.

Together, these ideas might make you feel less pressured to steal from obvious steal positions, so you can lay down a few hands in those positions, and get more respect when you do steal-raise.

Cris

[crockpot]

if the blinds are only 50-100 at this stage, your best play is probably to make your raises pretty small and fold to an all-in unless you believe you have the best hand. your goal is to steal some blinds, but not get into a big confrontation when you still have enough chips to last awhile.

change the blinds to something like 250-500, and it may be best to simply move in right away with a hand like A4, because you will be committed to calling an all-in anyway. so give them the maximum chance to fold, if you raise at all.

[triplc]

As Crockpot stated, this really depends upon how long you can wait him out. However, you still need to try to steal, if for no other reason than to get him to push all-in when you actually have KK or AA. Stay consistent with your raises. Limp in occasionally to change it up, even with a big hand. The thing is, if he's going all-in every time...you just have to hope for a big hand and make him pay.

if the time is getting short, you might need to take your shot with a hand like AJ or AQ, or a middle pair and hope it holds up. I would rather risk my tourney on a hand like AQ or AJ or 88 than JTs simply because it might win unimproved, and might dominate someone who will reraise with any A or a little pair when it gets shorthanded and there is an opportunity to knock someone out.

I guess this points out why it is so profitable to be aggressive when shorthanded...especially when you have the chips to back it up. By playing every hand like he has AA, the big stack has put you on the defensive to the point where you don't want to steal any more. Now, he can slowly grind you away until you have so few chips that you will need a couple of all-in victories just to make him nervous. It's nice to be the big stack (insert contented (or is it envious) sigh here).

CCC

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the scenario: 2 table SnG with a 10.00 buy in

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do they have two table SnGs, and how do you like them? Better game, or just a nice change of pace?

Martin

[Hotrod0823]

Martin,

Poker stars is the only site I know of with 2 table SnGs. They pay out 4 spots as opposed to 3. 40,30,20,10% of the buyins.

I like the change of pace but tend to do better on the 1 table games.

Thanks to everyone who replied. I need to just play my game and hurt the aggressive big blind when it counts.

Hotrod

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
Poker stars is the only site I know of with 2 table SnGs

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Sorry for taking your thread off topic!

Martin

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
It gets checked to me and I will raise to 300 or so 3xBB. Obvious Steal attempt? Is a limp in this case better? Anyway, I have had a few times where I get played back at all-in and I have to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

You should NOT fail to raise in these situations. Why give the BB a free chance to beat you?

Sometimes you'll try to steal with a marginal hand and get popped. So what, you have to fold.

Sometimes when it's down to three, you'll try to steal with a hand like A4 or KQ. Sometimes you'll just have to take a stand and hope for the best if you get re-popped. These hands are often worth a shot at it heads up when you're down to three.

al

[ohkanada]

With 2000 and blinds of 50-100, then stealing for 300 is fine. I personally like stealing from cutoff/button more than the SB. If I get reraised and I only have a weak ace then the cards are in the muck quickly. With a hand like KQ then it is a tougher choice depending on the player.

I will rarely or never open limp from the cutoff or button. I occasionally will just call from the SB if the BB is not overly aggressive and if I figure I can see a cheap flop.

Ken Poklitar

[juris]

[ QUOTE ]

Sometimes when it's down to three, you'll try to steal with a hand like A4 or KQ. Sometimes you'll just have to take a stand and hope for the best if you get re-popped. These hands are often worth a shot at it heads up when you're down to three.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement 100%.

But then Chris Brown said something different:

). Assuming no strong hands to play, you'd like to steal about three times per two orbits, so you stay ahead of the blinds and gain a little. You can adjust that down a bit when you catch strong hands, as there's no reason to take chances with trash hands when you're picking up chips with legitimate ones.


My question with this is how to handle the situation when it isn't final three, you take a shot with say K-10 or A-x and get popped back? Call and see a flop? Re-raise back to attack an attempted re-steal? I know it depends on who is coming back at you (that's why you must pay attention), but attempting to steal that much will cause you to eventually have to lay down (or all in) in which case you may be worse off than if you don't attempt to steal at all.

No biggie if you have a large stack I suppose, and in some cases depending on the blinds even a middle stack, but no good with the short stack. Just thinking out loud, I guess, but I try to steal a lot less than that and hope to pop a decent sized pot with a semibluff. If I'm short stacked and at 10-12 bb, I will likely move all in with a moderately respectable hand and take my chances.

Just trying to explore the science of blind stealing, but to me Chris Brown'sr rule of thumb is a tad high. But I could be playing just too darn tight for my own good, so I would love to hear more on this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CrisBrown]

Hi juris,

It may sound like a lot, but three steals per two orbits really isn't all that much. If there are 6 people at the table, that's 3 of 12 hands. And as I said, if you catch a real hand in there, you can knock out one of your steals.

The point is that with three steals per two orbits, you're gaining (even if only a little) on the blinds, rather than slowly bleeding down your stack. Yes, you'll get played back at once in awhile. That's okay, because some of the time they'll be playing back when you have a real hand, and you will make up there what you lose the times you have to lay down to a resteal.

Cris

[juris]

Wasn't thinking 1 table tourney, thinking multi. Guess I should pay better attention.

Shorthanded never came into my mind-I was thinking full table in the middle levels of a tournament. Your thought process may be more sound than mine even in that situation but that's what I was referring to. May be a leak I need to work on but I attempt steals to maintain the stack. Kinda the "no one wins until they get my chips" mentality I've seen in Lori's quote. Maybe just a different style, but against attentive players it makes my steal attempts perhaps more credible.

If I saw someone popping a lot of steals along the order you say, I loosen my requirements to play and isolate them, given the chance. Trick is doing it at the right time, like everything else, I guess.