Sad state of $4-8 - my bad

I was in one of those deceptive $4-8 games last night, where it initially looks like there is a lot of action, but after one round you realize they are just pushing money around waiting for fresh meat. I recognized only one player who plays everything from $4-8 to $40-80, and sometimes pot limit. Glad I usually do not play Monday nights if that is the standard game - it was way to tight for normal $4-8, as the pots averaged only about $25.00 each. There was a $10-20 game going so I assumed this player was in a losing streak, as this player usually drops down in limit until it's over.


This player was on my left (Button). I was dealt J9h. I called for one small bet with four players ahead of me, Button called. Flop came 78T rainbow giving me the nuts. Little blind bet the flop, got three other callers, I called, and so did the Button. Turn brought a king, two diamonds on the board. Checked to me and of course I bet, three callers. River brought the 2 of spades. Checked to me, I bet, Button was the only caller. Of course my straight was the nuts.


I received a lecture from Button about how I should have raised the flop because I had a lock. I knew without a doubt if I had raised the flop I would have lost over half the pot I dragged in as most if not all would have folded at the flop raise. I simply said, "I didn't know", and let it go at that. About 10 minutes later a friend of Button shows up and the whining starts again about how I had the nuts, didn't raise and it cost Button 2.5 big bets.


I thought to myself that Button, of all people should know not to lecture anyone who in their opinion made a clueless play, and especially not to whine about losing a hand. If Button thought I was that poor of a player not to raise the pot when I flopped the nuts, it should be easy to part me from my chips.


FWIW, I played for one hour forty five minutes and left with a whopping $12.00 profit. There are easier games with more loose chips to be had on another day. Comments?

i would have raised the flop. a bet and 3 callers with only one player left to act is the perfect place to raise.


I knew without a doubt if I had raised the flop I would have lost over half the pot I dragged in as most if not all would have folded at the flop raise.


noone will fold for one more small bet after calling one on the flop, thats ridiculous. the turn got checked to you anyway.

I'd usually raise the flop for value and to make anyone who has a straight draw to tie or beat me pay as much as possible. However, perhaps you were waiting for a safe card to hit on the turn and then were planning to raise if bet into? In any case, the button was way out of line. His criticism may have had some merit, but he had no business expressing it aloud. He's a hypocrite, as telling opponents how to play better is also an error.

Of course you should have raised the flop. You have a perfect situation when the SB bets, trapping 3 people in. All who called one bet would have called another.


Good decision to leave the game.

I would have also raised the flop, partly because I already have four people trapped in for 1 SB, and partly because I want to start protecting my nut, but somewhat vulnerable hand. These types of middle straights usually hit a lot of hands in an unraised flop, and there are no doubt some gutshots and maybe even open-ender's out there just waiting to put in another SB right now. But there is no way ( as you found out ) that they will bet out if a brick hits the turn.


Also, what would you do if you held AT, or maybe A8s? Wouldn't you want to stick a raise in here somewhere for value and/or to get a cheaper turn card? If you get into the pattern of never raising on the flop with the current nuts, you are going to become pretty predictable. If these opponents figure that you would never raise on the flop with a made str8, you are going to get all KINDS of action from them if you do. In this particular case, maybe not, because it soon became clear that no one else had flopped much of anything.


And as far as Button Boy's comments go, not much I can add to what others have said. I admit that when I first started playing, sometimes I couldn't resist showing everyone how "smart" I was because I had read a book or two, but I soon got over that. Even if he had an unbreakable case for how bad someone else had butchered a hand, why tap the glass on the aquarium?

Anyone who makes a critical comment about another person's play is both out of line and stupid. The smart thing to do is to either say nothing or to be complimentary about another person's play, no matter what you really think about it.


I like your comment, "I didn't know." It pays to be polite to everyone, but especially to your immediate left hand opponent. Sound like you had and have the right attitude.

I agree that he was out of line with his comments, though it appears that there were no fish in the game to scare off. Regardless, it was a dumb thing to say.


Something else jumped out at me when I read the post:


"There was a $10-20 game going so I assumed this player was in a losing streak, as this player usually drops down in limit until it's over."


If this is really what he said, and not just your interpretation, this shows a leak, if not in his game at least in his thinking. It's one thing to move down when your BR is in jeopardy, or if you're making poor decisions and feel you need an inexpensive "tune up."


This along with his aparent lack of emotional control should tell you he may not be as strong a player as you think.

I agree with your second paragraph 100%. If this were another game I would have pounded away without a second thought. At the time I thought my hand was rather safe, and didn't want to lose anyone. It is probable that they would have called a raise on the flop, but I wanted them there for the river bet. Perhaps chip wise the outcome would have been the same if I had raised the flop, the hand just would have ended sooner.


It was almost like a tease. I would have to play some real crud to get more than one player to come at me past the flop. You know those games where you feel you're playing the whole table rather than individual players? It was like that.

Good point. It was my observation, nothing more, as I see this person usually playing higher limits. I imagine that players who play higher stakes take their game more seriously and generally play better. Perhaps in this case this player isn't as strong as I give them credit for.


I will have to keep this in mind as it does happen on occasion where I play. Thanks

First off, good deal on quitting that game early. Wait for better game.


Second, the button's whining about losing 2.5 bets to you shows that perhaps you DID in fact play it right. I have no problem with how you played it. Rainbow board, nut straight, why would you want to drive all your opponents out? Sure, there is some risk of getting drawn out on, but it has to be relatively small, and worth taking in this case. Had there been a two-flush that you didn't have any of, then you should have (and probably would have) raised. Let the sucker on the button pay you off when he's drawing nearly dead or dead. then pretend to be an idiot when he starts his whining. Or, you could offer to sell him some towels to cry in, since they are generally not provided by the casino.


Dave in Cali