A little quiz

[JayLeno]

The codition is as this:
1) 10 handed Texas Holdem game.
2) You are sitting with King of spades and King of diamonds.
3) No matter wich 5 cards comes on the board you wont win and you wont split.
4) Normal set of deck - 52 cards

How many opponents(lowest possible) do you need to face in the showdown and wich hands do they need to have so that you cant win and cant split regardless of wich 5 cards is on the table? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[josie_wales]

Player 1: A /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Player 2: K /images/graemlins/heart.gifX
Player 3: K /images/graemlins/club.gifX

[jek187]

Off the top of my head I would guess 8. Holding AA(of your suit), KK, QQ, QQ, 4 players with 76s.

[Lori]

AKs AKs AA your KK, QJs QJs (all four suited hands different)

Edit: wrong, please continue without me.

Lori

[jek187]

But then you could still chop a pot when the board is 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[jasonHoldEm]

four players at the showdown AA, AK, AK, KK (you)

You're drawing completely dead, Your four flush is no good because the aces are in the other players hands, your four straight gets beaten by AK, and you have no kings to improve with.

(I think I got it right)
J

EDIT - nope /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Stagemusic]

Josie, you are close but you needed to be a little more specific with you KX's. It would have to be

K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif
K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Or vice versa.

You have to take the Q's of /images/graemlins/spade.gif and /images/graemlins/diamond.gif out so that neither of your K's can complete a 1 card straight flush.

[jek187]

Ok, change the 4 76s to 65s...forgot I didn't have all the aces accounted for.

[josie_wales]

Ahhhhh...
The straight flush on the board....I forgot about that...

the plot thickens.

J

[Spartacus]

You can always get a chop if there is a straight flush on board.

[Lori]

AA (your suits) AK AK and four T5 suited.

Lori

[Stagemusic]

Then you could have the 8-Q sf on the board and still split /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Lori]

AA your suits, KK and four T5 suited.

Lori

[jasonHoldEm]

[ QUOTE ]
AA your suits, KK and four T5 suited

[/ QUOTE ]

We're getting closer but you could still hit a king and improve

I think it's AA, AK, AK, four T5s and KK (you)

J

[Lori]

I think it's AA, AK, AK, four T5s and KK (you)

Sorry, i meant opponents

I thought I didn't need the AK's and cut to two KK's instead but then the A flush could fall, I believe you are correct.

Lori

[jasonHoldEm]

SPOILER
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<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Holdem Hi: 376992 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Kh 0 0.00 376992 100.00 0 0.00 0.000
Ad Ah 233314 61.89 143390 38.04 288 0.08 0.619
Ac Kc 32069 8.51 344635 91.42 288 0.08 0.085
As Ks 32069 8.51 344635 91.42 288 0.08 0.085
Ts 5s 187 0.05 355757 94.37 21048 5.58 0.014
Th 5h 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091
Tc 5c 187 0.05 355757 94.37 21048 5.58 0.014
Td 5d 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091
</pre><hr />

EDIT:

Lori's answer is better now that I understand it, provided AA is your suit

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Kd Kh 0 0.00 501924 100.00 18 0.00 0.000
Ad Ah 328982 65.54 172942 34.45 18 0.00 0.655
Ks Kc 10140 2.02 491784 97.98 18 0.00 0.020
Ts 5s 37276 7.43 440300 87.72 24366 4.85 0.086
Th 5h 31951 6.37 445625 88.78 24366 4.85 0.076
Tc 5c 37276 7.43 440300 87.72 24366 4.85 0.086
Td 5d 31951 6.37 445625 88.78 24366 4.85 0.076
</pre><hr />

(and I can't get the code tag to work right...)

J

[JayLeno]

Bingo!



From Hand Analyzer
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kd 0 0.00 376992 100.00 0 0.00 0.000
As Ad 233314 61.89 143390 38.04 288 0.08 0.619
Kc Ah 3341 0.89 373363 99.04 288 0.08 0.009
Ac Kh 3341 0.89 373363 99.04 288 0.08 0.009
Th 5h 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091
Tc 5c 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091
Td 5d 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091
Ts 5s 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091

[jasonHoldEm]

Very cool quiz mr. leno, for the record, Lori's answer is better (if we can stipulate AA is your suit you can have the other KK instead of AK/AK).

I think I could have beaten her to it if I was running on more than four hours of sleep.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Jason

[JayLeno]

You are right - Loris is even better!
Is this the final - no less than 6 hands?
I think its the best solution.

[jek187]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you could have the 8-Q sf on the board and still split

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, my reply wasn't optimal...but the Q8sf would be a loss since I have the 4Qs in the deck in other players hands.

[JayLeno]

After rethinking - this is not good enough!
The hand will split with any 4 of a kind with an ace on the board!
Therefore you must get rid of the 2 last aces - and therefore you were right about your solution!
When you posted your hand analyzer and it said %tie=0 it was because of the small number of split. Look at tie instead of %tie.

[Phishy McFish]

I'm not going to peek at the answers but I would guess that 3 other players....one with AA (the opposite suits as your Ks), the other two with AKo (having the As that match the suits of your Ks). If no one hits the AA wins. You can't catch any more Ks and if you hit the straight or flush to the K someone else has it to the A.

[jasonHoldEm]

Good point...man this was a tough one.

I think this one's been done before, but here goes...

Standard 10 handed game. Seat one is the button. Dealer opens a new setup but doesn't shuffle it and deals the hand as he normally would. What seat do you want to be sitting in? (Assume all hands go to river)

J

[mosch]

Well, I can't honestly remember the order of a new deck, but assuming it's: A-Kc, A-Kd, A-Kh, A-Ks, the deal would be:

1: Jc 8d
2: 2c Qc
3: 3c Kc
4: 4c Ad
5: 5c 2d
6: 6c 3d
7: 7c 4d
8: 8c 5d
9: 9c 6d
10:Tc 7d

Board: Td Jd Qd Ah 3h

So you'd want to be in the three seat.

[Phishy McFish]

Proof that I didn't peek.....but I think my answer was as close as possible to drawing dead PRE flop??

[JayLeno]

It must be like this with the order of cards you suggest:
2: Ac Jc
3: 2c Qc
4: 3c Kc
5: 4c Ad
6: 5c 2d
7: 6c 3d
8: 7c 4d
9: 8c 5d
10: 9c 6d
1:Tc 7d
before flop he only burns 1 card: 8d
After 3 cards he burns Qd
4 cards: Ad
The board will then be: 9d Td Jd Kd 2h
And the best hand is the highest flush - seat 2
But how are the deck actually? I dont think it is A-K from top?

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Bingo!



From Hand Analyzer
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kd 0 0.00 376992 100.00 0 0.00 0.000
As Ad 233314 61.89 143390 38.04 288 0.08 0.619
Kc Ah 3341 0.89 373363 99.04 288 0.08 0.009
Ac Kh 3341 0.89 373363 99.04 288 0.08 0.009
Th 5h 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091
Tc 5c 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091
Td 5d 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091
Ts 5s 28915 7.67 327029 86.75 21048 5.58 0.091


[/ QUOTE ]
I was able to improve slightly on this:

Ks Kd
As Ad
Kc Ah
Ac Kh
7h 7c
Td 7d
Ts 7s

This has the KK drawing totally dead preflop against just six opponents. (Notice that if there is a queen-high straight on board, the two AK's will chop. If there is a queen-high straight-flush it can only be in hearts or clubs, since the Td and Ts are accounted for, so Ac-Kh or Ah-Kc will win. You cannot have a jack-high straight on board, since all the 7s are accounted for. Ditto for ten-high down to seven-high. If there is a six-high straight on board, the hands with a 7 will chop. You cannot have a five-high straight on board since all the aces are accounted for.)

Can you be drawing dead preflop holding two red aces? (Again, "drawing dead" here means that you can't even win a portion of the pot on a split.) I cannot find a way to do it in a ten-handed holdem game; I think you'd need eleven opponents for it to occur.

[JayLeno]

Your right!
That was a way to get it down to 6 opponents.
Nice job!

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you be drawing dead preflop holding two red aces?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dynasty worked it out last year, but it's gotta be either 12- or 13-handed holdem.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you be drawing dead preflop holding two red aces?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dynasty worked it out last year, but it's gotta be either 12- or 13-handed holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's been solved for 12-handed holdem, but nobody has proved it is impossible in 10-handed holdem.

And incidentally, it was not Dynasty who worked it out for 12-handed holdem.

[Cosimo]

There are many other ways of arranging the six opponents. All of the aces need to be out (to keep from chopping quads); AK solves straight problems; AsAd solves flushes and unimproved hands; the other kings to keep you from improving; and then finally something to prevent on-board straights and straight flushes.

* KsKd (you)
* AsAd
* AhKh
* AcKc
* Qs7s (Q could be JT9)
* Qd7d (")
* 7h7c

[Jim Kuhn]

What about 2-3-4-5-6 of any suit?

[Lori]

All four 7's are out there to extend it.

Lori

[Jim Kuhn]

Duh!! Oops! Thank you for pointing that out without calling me a moron! I should not try playing three tables and taking poker quizzes at the same time!