$500 multi on p*, insane hand, what should i have done?

[runner91]

2nd hour on the 500 multi on stars, been a roller coaster, fresh off i beat this hand comes:

*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #259803330: Tournament #805352, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2004/01/25 - 17:51:46 (ET)
Table '805352 51' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: TRADERGOLF (1255 in chips)
Seat 2: garydunn (4825 in chips)
Seat 3: runner91 (2010 in chips)
Seat 4: BIGTALKER (5158 in chips)
Seat 5: Malagate (6335 in chips)
Seat 6: moonrise (2245 in chips)
Seat 7: Busty69 (3020 in chips)
Seat 8: Ferrari1 (2867 in chips)
Seat 9: Satchmo420 (15630 in chips)
runner91: posts small blind 100
BIGTALKER: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to runner91 [Kd Jd]
Malagate: calls 200
moonrise: folds
Busty69: folds
Ferrari1: folds
Satchmo420: folds
TRADERGOLF: folds
garydunn: raises 400 to 600
runner91: calls 500
BIGTALKER: folds
Malagate: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [Td As 5d]
runner91: checks
Malagate: checks
garydunn: bets 1400
runner91: raises 10 to 1410 and is all-in
Malagate: folds
garydunn: calls 10
*** TURN *** [Td As 5d] [3c]
runner91 said, "uh oh"
*** RIVER *** [Td As 5d 3c] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
runner91: shows [Kd Jd] (high card Ace)
garydunn: shows [7c 9c] (a pair of Nines)
garydunn collected 4820 from pot
runner91 [observer] said, "no way"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4820 | Rake 0
Board [Td As 5d 3c 9s]
Seat 1: TRADERGOLF folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: garydunn (button) showed [7c 9c] and won (4820) with a pair of Nines
Seat 3: runner91 (small blind) showed [Kd Jd] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 4: BIGTALKER (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Malagate folded on the Flop
Seat 6: moonrise folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Busty69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Ferrari1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Satchmo420 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


immediately i thought of what an insane beat it was, then i thought about it and decided it was my own fault for not pushing in immediately on the flop. my idea i guess was to checkraise allin, but with my short stack i doubt id have any reraise power so that was a bad idea. also, i thought i would be called anyway by an A and need a flush to win, so i sorta hoped i could keep both in the hand and try for a triple up. my risk tolerance was such that i didnt want to fold this draw, i was ok with it if i were to miss.

so what im wondering is, should i be thrilled i induced a bluff and got this guy in to double me up with only 4 insecure outs? how did i mess up? what would you do here? thanks

-matt

[William]

As I see it, you made 2 mistakes here. The first one is playing those cards UTG and raised. The second, now that you got involved, not pushing in on the flop, but that one you have already figured it out.

[runner91]

i knew it was a questionable call preflop, the fact that the raiser was a maniac, coupled with me getting it 3 way instead of headsup, made me call. that guy had been raising about 30% of the hands and i knew i would be competetive.

even if hes a nut, how bad is the preflop call?

[William]

I think is quite bad, KJ is a very tricky/dangerous hand to play. A muck in first position, I believe, even against a maniac. Why not wait for a better oportunity?

[runner91]

ok, so past my preflop mistake, i wanna focus on the flop play.

i was first to act, and as a short stack and with a good flop (not great) for my hand, im not sure what i wanted... i couldnt think my utg allin would go uncalled with an A on the flop... if i thought there was any chance i take it down i would have undoubtedly pushed in (thats my rule of thumb in that situation)... should i have thought my 1400 would get a solid A to fold for less than the pot?

i think the hand wound up best case scenario for me on the flop, i got in with a horrible hand. that is a result oriented analysis, but isnt the goal to get someone in the hand with worse cards than you? pushing in guarantees that that wont happen. checking i might get money from a poor hand, and will get money from any hand that would have called my allin anyway. just cause i happened to take a bad beat doesnt convince me i messed up.

whats the goal for me in that situation? what am i trying to accomplish?

[Guy McSucker]

From someone who doesn't do well in these events...

Before the flop: this isn't, or shouldn't be, a steal raise, because of the early caller, so I would lean towards mucking this hand. Obviously you believed it to be playable, and you were there, so let's move on.

On the flop: you have so many outs to the nuts here, you can't fold under any circumstances. Still you might miss! So I prefer to move all-in straight away and have a chance to take the pot uncontested. It's already a nice size: bigger than your remaining stack.

Guy.

[AJo Go All In]

a primary benefit of pushing in is to get a worse hand to fold. there's a good chance that you could get better hands to fold by pushing in on the flop (something like QQ or KT for instance).

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
i knew it was a questionable call preflop, the fact that the raiser was a maniac, coupled with me getting it 3 way instead of headsup, made me call. that guy had been raising about 30% of the hands and i knew i would be competetive.

even if hes a nut, how bad is the preflop call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Aha! New information about the raiser. You'll get better feedback if you include all of this type of knowledge in the original post.

If he's raising 30% of the time, well, KJs is well within the top 30% of all hands, in fact it's about the top 20%. And some of the hands that are better than KJ are only marginally better, such as small pairs. Maybe you shouldn't have called, but reraised all-in? If you're quite certain that the BB and the limper will fold, and that this maniac is as loose as you suggest, that play is probably superior to calling. You're going to hate flopping K hi and losing to the limper's KQ.

It is generally a bad idea to call off so much of your stack. I mean, this call is 500 out of 1900 remaining, more than 25%. That's way too much to call and try to hit the flop. If you call for this amount, it should be because you're trapping or something, not waiting to see if the flop hits you or not.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)