Two JJ hands

Two hands from a late night 4-8 session at Diamond L'ils outside Seattle. Game is 8 handed. Four or five see almost all flops for one bet players, one new arrival who looks young and hungry, my buddy who is good, tight aggressive type and myself. Table started upon our arrival so only been with this line-up for about 45 mins. When:


1. All fold to mid position player (young, hungry guy, call him YH) who open raises. I call on button with JJ. SB folds. BB calls. Flop is all low cards, rainbow, say 953 rainbow. BB checks, YH bets, I raise, BB folds. YH hesitates a bit, then 3 bets and I call. Turn is also low, say 2. He bets, I call. Another brick on river, he bets, I call.


Anyone play this differently? Reraise pre-flop? Cap flop? Raise turn? Fold before river?


A 1/2 hour later. I think we are down to 7 handed now:


2. I am in SB. One limper and my buddy (MB) raises on the button. This could be any Group 1 hand, maybe a small pair, possible suited high cards. He knows I am tight and will give up my blind willingly. I call with JJ. BB folds too, limper calls. Again, flop is all low cards, rainbow. I check, limper checks, MB

bets, I checkraise, limper folds, now MB 3 bets, I call. Turn and river are low, no straight or flush possibilities. I check and call turn and river.


Routine? Does anyone laydown here? Bet more?


Hands like these are ones where good hand reading can really be helpful it seems. Still, after only 45 minutes at the table my information is pretty incomplete. Any ideas how to use my betting patterns to get a better read? I feel like I kind of went on autopilot here which may not be best.


Thanks.


KJS

Start speaking the language of poker.


Both times, you just called preflop with a pretty big hand (at least for LLHE). By doing so, you didn't really give your opponents a chance to read your hand because you are not speaking to them (pokerically speaking). Therefore, they have no reason to think you have anything special.


Because you haven't instilled fear in them preflop, they don't believe you have anything and continue to try to push you around after the flop. On the one hand, this is good, because they may be betting into you with inferior hands. On the other hand, this may be bad, because they are sticking in there with hands that may suck out on you. But mainly, because you haven't started pushing back at them, they think they need less to keep pushing on you. This causes them to seem powerful in relation to your perspective, simply because you think they are pushing at JJ, and they think they are pushing against a random hand. So their aggression may be very unwarranted, but you can't know because you haven't revealed any strength.


I guess what I'm trying to say is that because of your deceptive way of playing the hand, you can't figure out what their strength means because you can't put them on what their read of you is (does that make sense?). You have to give them some sense of what you have before you can judge their reactions. You've gotta give some information to get some information.


Anyways, both times, 3-bet preflop. ESPECIALLY with the button. After this, you will have put your opponents "on notice" that you have a big hand, and can then judge their post flop reactions accordingly. As it stood, you have to keep in mind they don't think you have much, and are likely to keep pushing you with hands of a much wider variety in strength, making it harder for you to make decisions. If you 3-bet preflop, they will know (and you will know they know) that they need more strength to keep pushing, and you can then play more accurately.


Hope what I mean is clear.

I disagree. I think that JJ is not that great of a hand in low limit poker. Too many idiots out there playing A-Blank, K-Blank, ect.. Too easy to have that flop come down bad. I think he played both hands pretty well. Depending on the read I had on each opponent I would have played it very similar if not exactly the same. Here is the only thing I may have changed:

Against the younger guy I may have been more aggressive. There is a chance here that he has got something huge (trips, better pair) reraise him on the flop, if he comes back over the top then he has you and fold, if he calls you probably have him.


Against your buddy, you should be able to read your friend better than that. Does his reraise means he has everything forseeable beat? When you call and he still pushes he is saying I have you beat. Calling all the way down isn't bad if your buddy will pay for the meal after the game with what he took off you but you are probably a looser here as well.


Personally, I make alot of money in low limit off of people overbetting the second tier of pairs (QQ,JJ,10-10). I think a raise can be good if it will drive people out but generally in low limit games I find that a big pot keeps more people in. (Psychological thing: "Normally I would fold this crap I am holding, BUT the pot is SO big and everyone is gambling so screw it even a blind squirrel can find a NUT!")

David,


I read you loud and clear. I knew I had erred as soon as I did not 3 bet the button in hand 1. I tried to make up for it with a "I can beat your big cards" raise on the flop but then he 3 bet and I ran into a hole. Certainly if I 3 bet pre-flop and raise the flop and THEN he 3 bets I have a better read. Do I still go to the showdown though? Hmmmm.


Reraising with worst position in Hand 2 is something I will have to think about. Again, I opted for the cheap pre-flop play and tried to be aggressive on the flop. Then I got the "nice try but I reraise" raise and I shut down again. I can see how a pre-flop 3 bet and bet out on the flop gives out much more information about both our hands. Still, both times I play at these guys and they came over on me. Is that not a good indication I may be toasted?


Thanks for the comments. I thought I played these kind of meekly and you have helped see how I can gain control better.


KJS

Are you saying its a bad idea to 3-bet preflop with JJ against A-blank or K-blank? Its exactly because people are calling with A-blank and K-blank that makes JJ such a good hand in LLHE. If your opponents are playing these hands (as in mid or higher limits), then JJ goes way down in value.


David

i think the only two situations in llhe when you want to play JJ is when you can anticipate an aggressive multiway pot (where you would play it like a small pair "no set no bet")


or


in a passive short handed pot where you can bet for value.

The problem with 3 betting with JJ is that there is a better than average chance that someone is out there with A-B, K-B and there is a better than average chance that there is both an A and a K out there if you are in a no fold em' hold em game.


Stats:

You hold JJ

50 Cards unknown

10 Handed- 18 cards out

On average 4.32 A,K,Q are out against you.

Of these cards on average 1 will be grouped with another high card. So assume that you will get somewhere around 2 people that will play and these guys will be playing with at least an A,K,Q in their hand.


Now lets assume a loose, low limit game. You are not going to eliminate any chasers by taking it from 2 to 3 bets to play. In fact I actually believe you will encourage these bad players to play more often as time goes on becuase they watch that A-Blank hit a couple of times.


Still assuming two cards out that will beat yours if they pair up there is roughly a 60% chance you will loose this hand. And that is assuming that you are not beaten already.


I think the problem most people stumble upon is that mathmatically it looks like a good play especially with two callers. However, realistically I feel it is a bad play for a couple of reasons:

#1. It will not be effective at eliminating any other players. And if it eliminates 1 person heads up is not always the place you want to be.

#2. You must consider the raise as a show of strength. What is your read on this guy, he is in a bad position and raised, is he too aggressive or was it a solid raise. How many hands has he played, has he rolled anything you could see ect....

#3. You put the better in a position of reraising (your beat now and should fold), calling you (he probably has two big cards and the flop will decide who wins, or he feels he has you trapped and starts to play slower), folding (Not likely but he could be trying to bluff, or it gets too rich for big blank). The only scenario that you should see the flop on is when he calls. Of the times you do see the flop you are going to get beat 60% of the time. If your heads up this is a loosing position, and if three guys actually see the flop for three bets then there is a chance that there may even be three cards out that can beat you if not more.


If you just call like you did. The flop comes blank. He bets, you raise, he reraises. His reraise acknowledges the fact that you now consider yourself the leader so he must assume paired the top card, or pocket pair bigger than the board, and he says he has these hands beat. Now the only question is do you believe him. If not reraise, if so fold or call it down.


You have spent 1 sB more but you gathered more information #1. You got to see the flop and prayed for the J to hit. #2. You know that he can beat top pair, good kicker, or low to middle pocket pairs. (or he is bluffing)


Just a note I discount bluffers in my low limit games becuase they do not tend to last too long as they give their money away fairly quickly. Low limit is all about showing the best hand to win.


There is no need to throw alot of money into a pot with JJ, heck AA doesn't hold up that often much less JJ. Wait to see the flop, Hope the J hits then you can make some real money.


Last thing I think reraising in a higher limit game is the way to go becuase less people will play Big-Blank and it is a stronger play with crads that could very well be the best on the board.

Results:


1. I won. JJ v. TT

2. I won. My buddy was getting too frisky with big suited cards.


KJS

According to you, if there are two other people against me, I stand a 60% chance of losing this hand (by some fuzzy looking math).


I put in $1. They put in $2. I will win 40% of the time. The pot is $3, and EV-speaking, $1.20 of it is mine. I have put in $1. Why wouldn't I want to play this game?


Don't feed me that "no one will fold" argument. They are underdogs. I don't want them to fold. I want them to put in their money before the flop misses them. If an ace hits the board, I have no reason to get excited and lose any more money. If they get encouraged by the occassional win, all the better. They are LOSING MONEY when they call my raise. I am WINNING MONEY when they call my raise. End of story.


David

I agree with David on reraising on the button.


I am not a fan of reraising with JJ in the BB unless the raise is coming from a button/cutoff steal.


Ken Poklitar