QJo, should I have even started?

3/6 game, 9 handed. 3 of the players are fairly aggressive. a couple tight folks (it's early so I don't know if some of the tights guys are weak or strong.) The rest of the folks are fairly middle of the road for a 3/6.


I'm in the big blind with QJo. Three players limped into the pot, SB limped in for the partial bet and I checked it off.

The flop came Q high rainbow with a couple rags. SB checked. I think I made a poor choice here and bet. I think a better move would have been a check. I could have then check raised a late position bet or folded if there was an early bet and several callers. Needless to say I did bet and everyone called except the SB who folded.

The turn comes an A of the 4th suit. I'm first to act. What do I do? I decided to bet to see where I stand. I would fold to a raise since I had such a weak hand. 2 of the 3 called. Great no info there.

The river brought another rag. No flush no straits. At this point I've got no information worth anything other than 2 people were willing to call a bet on the turn when the ace fell. I fire out another bet. Both players call.


I think I played this hand very poorly and wasn't happy with it all. I can think of many ways I could have played it differently including not playing it all (check and fold to the first bet).


What would the smart thing have been? Or did I play it ok?

The results aren't very exciting and I'm sure that by my posting it on here you can guess what they are.

Both of the other two had aces with small kickers. One out kicked the other and took down the pot I had built for them.


The more I think about the hand the more I think I really should have either check raised the flop or check and folded.

I think betting out was just dumb.

This hand is why being out of position sucks.


I bet the flop here about 80% of the time. Imagine for one second how sick you would have been if you had checked, and everyone with an ace got a free draw at you.


On the turn, you are in trouble. 3 players left to act after you makes this tough to bet. Heads up I wouldn't stop betting but with 3 callers it is time to slow down with that card hitting. A bet and a call and you can lay it down. If it is checked to the button I am tempted to call since the button would certainly bet any queen here and maybe even less.

QJo seems like a very powerful hand when the flop is Q,rag,rag rainbow. In this situation, how much different is it than AQ? Both would lose to trips and two pair. QJo just has the additional fears of (1)an Ace or King coming on the turn or river to give someone a bigger pair or (2) being out kicked by KQ. That's not a big difference.


I think you're confusing the mediocrity of QJo pre-flop (especially from an early position) with what I think is a powerful hand with a Q,rag,rag rainbow flop.


You played the hand very well. You flopped top pair with a good (not great) kicker on a ragged board. Bet it. If somebody draws to overcards and hits occasionally, so be it.

the flop bet was good, a check raise is fine in an aggressive game, or just with an aggressive button. how many flops had been checked around?


as it is, two of the players who called your flop bet were looking for 3 outs, thats what you want.


your bet on the river is fine. if they will play A-rag after that flop drawing to 3 outs, then they will probably call your flop bet with pocket 99, middle pair on the flop, gutshots, etc. my guess is many times when you bet this hand for value into 2 players it will be good. i play in ridiculous games like this all the time.

Dynasty is right you've got a strong hand on the flop. Automatically check-folding is a big mistake. Your hand is well worth a raise unless an early player who is also weak-tight bets.


I really hate this "to find out where I'm at" crap reason for betting (the turn). Well, you could find out if you checked. The turn bet was reasonable unless the callers are particularly tenatious such as they will call with stiff A over-cards. If the callers are somewhat reasonable (any pair or any draw) then the chances they have an Ace are not that good. Anyway it was a questionable turn bet but no disaster.


The river bet was pretty weak all-in-all unless you really belive you'll get paid off by a worse hand.


Your REAL mistake, IMO, was berating yourself for your bad play since you lost, and forgetting to make a mental note that these two callers ARE very tenacious and are clearly "call one time" folk on the flop. Be sure to bet your good hands (such as QJ flop Qxx or a good draw) on the flop in the future when they are in: make sure you get that loose money.


Notice that on the flop you hade 2 guys drawing to 2 cards and one guy, at best, drawing to 5. So you got 3 calls when there were only 7 bad cards and 34 good ones, so you got 3:1 for your money and were a 5:1 favorite. Thats a LOT of EV. Still think you should have checked?


- Louie

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm not really berating myself because I lost, I'm sorry if it came across that way. More to the point I was trying to find out if there was an alternate way I could have played it that might have won the hand. I know you can't win every hand and that it's about winning the most money over the long run and not necessarily every pot, but if there is a way to win it, I want to know.

To be more direct:

1. Should I have tried a check raise on the flop? I couldn't be sure someone would bet and it might have been checked through. I felt I should bet because of this, but what % chance that someone would bet am I looking for here. If I'm say 80% sure it will be bet is a check raise appropriate? Or should I be 100% sure. I know I don't want the turn to come free with my current holding, but what is an acceptable risk here?

2. You say the bet on the turn is questionable. Ok, so if it's not checked through and there is a bet, do I fold? I don't think so but I don't think calling a bet when an ace drops is smart and I don't see my self raising this bet with my holding. I felt I had to bet here as I would want to call a bet further up the line.

3. The river was another of my big questions. I just couldn't see a play here that I liked and over all it's because I wasn't thrilled with the hand. I guess I could have just checked and called then mucked when the ace got turned over.

Vegan,


My friends give me a hard time for being too straightforward but I play the hand very similar to you. In LLHE, I find that betting out is often the best choice for me when I have top pair in early position. Its just too often that I see people try to get fancy and give a free card. Bet your made hand. Very often you are in the lead and others are drawing against you. Make them pay.


On the turn I would continue to bet as you did, unless I had some indication someone else was going to bet if I checked (reaching for chips, etc). In that case I would check and call.


No matter my action on the turn, I would check the river here and see if the person on my left bets and the other calls. If so, I'm out. If the guy on my left bets and the other drops, it makes my choice harder. Gotta know my player here but I am probably folding. If only the last player bets I try to get a read on if the other player is calling and were back to knowing my player.


KJS


PS. Where are you playing? Seattle area, right?

"PS. Where are you playing? Seattle area, right?"


Yes. That was in the 3/6 at Kenmore.

I would have checked the turn, although as Louie said, betting is no big disaster. But betting on the river with two callers on the turn is a sign that you have at least one any-ace-and-a-race player in the game. It turned out that there are 2 to your dismay. You said it was too early to ascertain some players' style.

How is that game? I haven't been there in well over a year.


KJS

It depends. Nice answer, huh? /images/smile.gif


Seriously though it can be good at times. I've sat down in games where every hand the flop was seen by 7-8 people on the 9 person table. The jackpot is pretty high right now so there are a lot of people sitting in the games just for a crack at it.


Other times though I'll go at a decent time and it's just odd, the group will be quite a bit tighter with something more like 3-4 handed flops. Still playable as at least 2 of those 3-4 are rather fishy but not as potentially profitable.