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View Full Version : River: I may be dumb but I ain't stupid


10-16-2001, 05:19 PM
I'm playing 3-6 with a kill. The game is pretty good, not too much raising, usually at least 4 players, no mainacs, can't complain. It's a kill pot and the killer is in the BB. Three limp into the pot and I limp on the button with Tc9c. The SB, a pretty solid player, raises. Everyone calls, 6 players.


The flop is Q Q J rainbow with one club. Open-ender and backdoor flush draw, but the board is paired. The SB bets and all but one call to me. I raise it to try for a free card, and to perhaps represent a queen if the SB has kings, aces, or AK. No such luck, the SB reraises. Only one player drops and the rest call, including me. I'm not so sure this was a good flop raise on my part, comments?


The turn is the Kd, no flush possible. It is checked to me, so I bet my straight (no free cards). The SB calls and everyone else folds. What should I have done if the SB had check-raised me? I would say reraise, because unless he has AT (doubtful), then by check-raising me, he would be trying to drive people out, which probably means he doesn't have the full house, or he would want them to stay in.


The river is the As. The SB checks, I check.


Now here's the thing: had the SB been almost all-in, and only had 1$ left, I could have just about folded this huge pot to a 1$ bet. What does the SB have? I'll tell you what he has. He could only have one thing, a full house. Whether it's kings full, aces full, or queens full, I KNEW what he had. He actually complemented me on being smart enough to check, as obvioiusly he was planning to check-raise me. While many players WOULD have bet, I knew better. I knew that he had to have a full house, and it was almost certainly queens full of aces, with AQs in the hole (which is exactly what he had).


Comments welcome.


Dave in Cali

10-16-2001, 06:18 PM
I think you should have checked the turn. If he had the boat you would have saved having to call a checkraise…if he didn’t you might have induced a bluff from him on the river.


What do you think?

10-16-2001, 06:21 PM
Even at these limits the flop scares me. The game description you give is fairly sane by Cali standards. You are drawing on a highly coordinated paired board with a preflop raiser out of the blinds. Add to that the fact that the SB led at the board and three people called and almost certainly someone has a queen. Any more paint hitting the board here is absolutely terrifying.


In this situation, I tend to look at my hand as a gutshot more than an open ender because a king is likely to either fill someone up who is not full already or give them a redraw to a chop or a higher straight. I flat call because I really only have 4 clean outs and I want to be able to wipe out the field on the turn if I hit an 8, and I definitely want to see the action in front of me if a king hits.


On the turn you made a nice read on the SB, but if anyone calls or check-raises between yourself and the SB, I hope you are ready to eject if need be.


On the river, checking is the only real play you can make as you simply cannot be called by a worse hand in this heads up situation. Well done to get the showdown without investing any more money in this one. This one has trouble hand written all over it and you were able to get out pretty cleanly.


Clark

10-16-2001, 06:36 PM
I'm with Mr. Meister on this one, that was not a particularly good flop. Be "glad" it only costs one bet to draw. And you know how I feel about "free" card plays: you usually don't get what you pay for. I once went in for a hair cut and got a "free" blow-dry I didn't need and it only costs me $5 for a shampoo I didn't need.


Without any effort I seem to naturally attempt to visualize specific hands the opponents may have. As such it would seem inconceivable to me that anybody would NOT check the river in your spot. Yes, MAYBE he's over-playing AJ and yes MAYBE he'll call with it. But GEEEEZZZE, this really isn't rocket science.


I also notice a bit of a contradiction with that hand: the blind was observant enough to know that the King was a terrible card for his hand, but NOT observant enough to know that the Ace was a terrible card for everybody else. Curiuous.


- Louie

10-17-2001, 10:07 AM
I think your way of playing it may have been better. Actually, I wouldn't even have called the last 12$ if the ace was still the river card. however, if I KNEW what he had, obviously I should have bet the turn and not given him a free chance to beat me. Also, there were still others left in the hand on the turn.

10-17-2001, 10:10 AM
Good point about how the blind played the hand. I think he way over estimated how aggressive a player I am, or perhaps he thought I was very aggressive yet not very observant. who knows, but anyone paying any attention in my spot would think that betting the river would have been insane.

10-17-2001, 10:23 AM
If he was down to a $1.00 how could he have check-raised?

10-18-2001, 12:21 AM
Dave,


Once again, I congratulate you on another interesting hand. Here's my 2 cents worth:


I play in AZ and I'm not exactly sure how much play differs from Southern CA... but your flop raise tells me exactly 1 thing... you ain't got QJ. The very best you could have would be trips, good kicker. More likely, you want to see the rest of the hand for free. If I'm the SB in this game, I ain't skeered of you, I reraise as he does. With the flopped full house, you'd raise the turn. Poker 101. You know this and I'm overstating the obvious, sorry.


The turn card would definitely give me pause as the SB because it's very possible that you just filled or made a hand (as you did). KQ suited or not on the button is a very possible hand.


By the time the river comes, the only thing you can do is check with a kill raise out of the SB. You only beat AK and AJ (very unlikely) out of the possible raising hands in his position. Your assessment of the full house is absolutely on the mark, since all his "birthday cards" are up there.


Tangent question: What would you do if the river came an offsuit 9?


Best wishes,

Mike