Popularity Killing Game

[Tie Domi]

For me, poker’s recent explosion in popularity has killed the game. I have been playing recreationally at Foxwoods for about 5-6 years, but theses days I go less and less. The tournaments, which aren’t particularly good values, sell out 2-3 hours in advance. On the weekends, the lists for the live games are out of control. The noise level is much higher due to the constant blaring from the boards and the food/ beverage service is poor.

I don’t really blame the Foxwoods staff for the problems. They just can’t keep up with the demand. They could probably double the juice on the tournaments tomorrow and still sell out. The same can be said for the rake. People don’t seem to care; they just want to play like the guys on TV.

The NEPC looks to be a total disaster. I anticipate early sell-outs and long, long, long lists.

The room has probably improved for people who play very high stakes or are there at off-peak hours, but for me it has really taken a downturn.

[KidParty]

Poker is dead, too many people are playing it...or nobody goes to the card club anymore cuz it is always full...Where's Yogi Berra?

[CrackerZack]

Good response.

[Tie Domi]

Not exactly...

When a multitude of people want to line up and pay more for a service that you used to get easier and cheaper... you have lost out.

Under normal circumstances, competition would open up and offset the change in demand. I guess home games could do some of that, but in general legal casinos are in a good position to exploit the players unchecked

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
The room has probably improved for people who play very high stakes

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. All during the week and a half from Christmas Day to the first Monday of January, I was off work. I only live about 6 miles from FW, so I expected to play a lot of live PLH and/or 50-100 to 100-200 mixed games. Yet those games hardly ever got played during the break. The room would fill up with lower limit games early in the day (sometimes before noon), and then there would be no open tables until very late at night.

However, this doesn't mean poker is killed. It just means it's changing. Adapt or die, I think some people would say.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]
When a multitude of people want to line up and pay more for a service that you used to get easier and cheaper... you have lost out.

Under normal circumstances, competition would open up and offset the change in demand. I guess home games could do some of that, but in general legal casinos are in a good position to exploit the players unchecked

[/ QUOTE ]

Tie Domi has a point. For those looking simply to make money, the explosion is certaintly beneficial. But for many of us, money is secondary to the enjoyment of the game, and when your quiet game suddenly turns into a crowd, you loose a certain amount of the enjoyement.

In most places, the current casinos do have a government granted monopoly on public poker, which would cause prices to rise higher than they would in a more competitive market. But due to the goverment erected barrier to entry, nobody can come in and capitalize on players with similar desires as Tie.

But at least here in AZ, I see a possibility for players to create an alternative to casino gambling: a poker club. Something like a country club for poker. Members pay dues, which fund things like dealers, tables, cards, and chips, and get to play in a quieter, private environment. If there were enough members, you would gain the public card room advantage of having games available more often, but also have the home game advantage of a more subdued atmosphere (depends on the home game though /images/graemlins/grin.gif), no rake, and being able to choose who you play with. As long as the club was not profiting from the games, this would be legal according to my interpretation of the AZ statutes. The only problem is finding enough members to make this cheaper than simply paying inflated rake at the local card rooms.

I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a few years now, any thoughts?

[Phat Mack]

People don’t seem to care; they just want to play like the guys on TV.


This is truly the Golden Age of poker. I've played over 40 years, and I've never seen so much dead money at poker tables in my life. Something similar happened to pool in the early 60's with the release of the movie The Hustler. All the kids wanted to be pool sharks. It only lasts a couple of years. Get it while you can.

[Gamblor]

If some punk kid cuts in front of you on the board, or some waitress takes too long to get you your drink, drop 'em, and sit 5 in the box.

[Losing all]

haha, nice. just hope the punk kid isn't Probert, or he'll put your ass in a sling.

[Gamblor]

I wonder how many times Probert's nosebleeds had nothing to do with a Wendel Clark right hook...

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Greg, any new info on the Mohegan situation?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Tie Domi is an anagram of Me Idiot. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

For me, I certainly go to Foxwoods a lot less than a year ago. Even the Sunday NLHE is a pain, meaning I have to be on the road by 6:00 AM to guarantee I'll get a seat. I can sit down at my computer any time I want. And all the while, the slot machines in the what used to be the poker room at Mohegan are less than half occupied.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

You hear rumors all the time, but they're inconsistent or even contradictory, so who knows which ones to credit?

I'll believe it when I see it, basically. Or when there is an official announcement from MS. Until then, I'm not going to bother giving it any thought.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Tie Domi has a point. For those looking simply to make money, the explosion is certaintly beneficial. But for many of us, money is secondary to the enjoyment of the game, and when your quiet game suddenly turns into a crowd, you loose a certain amount of the enjoyement.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point, but even for players primarily "in it for the money", attracting more players does not necessarily help their win rate.

For example, suppose that a casino runs a daily tournament, and you're a good tournament player, with an EV for the tournament of $100 profit. And let's say that on average, you spend two hours playing the tournament, so your win rate is $50 an hour.

Then there is an "explosion" and the tournament fills up every night, so you have to arrive 2.5 hours earlier to get a seat. Also since there are more people, the tournament takes longer to play. So now, including waiting time, each tournament takes you five hours. With all the inferior players, your EV per tournament might double to $200, but your hourly rate has declined from $50 to $40.

Also, if the house decides to increase its chop because of the increased demand, your win rate would decline even more.

[mikelow]

Nice nickname--are you a "fan" of the hockey thug?

Play online. You don't have worry about noise and crowds. And it's less driving.

[MadSci]

O.K., Mohegan and Foxwoods are in the Greater New York City Tri-state Megaplex, correct? I suppose in that area, where there has always been the population density to support a bunch of games, one could find too much of a good thing. But let me tell ya, here in the Great North West, it's a different story. Seattle has gone from one club north and one club south of town (total of like 7 tables running on a weekday lunch hour) to pushing two dozen poker rooms in the area.

Washington State has a rule that I'm not sure exists elsewhere: a casino can have no more than 15 total tables. (our Indian friends can have as many as they want.) I think this is helping drive the shear number of rooms. For example, there are 6 poker rooms I know of within 10 minutes of SeaTac airport. There are , I think, a total of 8 tournaments a day in these rooms. I certainly find the choices of different atmosphere, clientele, and schedule fun and convienient. And potentially profitable.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

O.K., Mohegan and Foxwoods are in the Greater New York City Tri-state Megaplex, correct?

That's sort of pushing the definition. The casinos are about equidistant from New York & Boston, and about the same distance from NYC as Atlantic City.

[CrackerZack]

And southern california has a ton of rooms and N. Cal has a number of them also. Its east coast biased because we're getting the shaft. Foxwoods is over 2 hours from NYC so its not really NYC bias as much as new england. AC is better but driving in NJ is about as much fun as smelling the meadowlands in the summer.

[B-Man]

I live about 2 hours from Foxwoods, and over the last couple of years have travelled to Foxwoods somewhere between half and two-thirds of the weekends to play 75-150 stud, and occassionally play a little higher and/or in mixed games at similar stakes.

It used to be that there were almost always 2-3 $75 stud games on saturdays and sundays.

However, recently the trend you mentioned of the lower stakes games filling up all available tables early in the day has become not just a trend, but the rule. The result is that there is often just one game going, and it has a huge waiting list.

Because of that, I have been going to Foxwoods a LOT less often, because who wants to drive 2 hours, then sit around for hours waiting to get into a game?

I wish the Mohegan Sun would reopen their poker room (or better yet, open a larger room).

[WDC]

Tie,

I see your point but I do have to agree with Greg that you have to adapt if you want to keep playing.

AT CP in Minnesota we have a very nice 30 or so table club. Before WPT I could drive out on a Friday night after work arrive about 6:30 p.m. and get into a 4-8 or 6-12 game within a half hour or so. The games were pretty tough.

Now if I drive out on a friday night and arrive at 6:30, I might make it into a game by 8:30, but the games are not especialy tough. I am not a meticulous record keeper but I think that my hourly win rate is better even if i count the 2 hours it takes to get into a game.
I can no longer just decide to go out to the club and play for a couple of hours. I now need to plan for a 5-7 hour window to play, however, when I do play the games are more beatable. I guess I can take that exchange.

Good Luck.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

AC is better but driving in NJ is about as much fun as smelling the meadowlands in the summer.

I've said this before, but other than in the summer, I'll take the Parkway over I-95 north through CT any day. But, of course, that isn't an issue for me, as FW is only 45 minutes down I-95 from my house.