Getting killed with this hand.

[DrPhysic]

Situation:
Low buy-in SNG Stars. One or two table. Blinds not important.

Dealt Axs bet 2bb preflop. 3-5 callers.

Flop A 5 5 (my x was not a 5) Once it was 9s. No apparent st, no flush draw.

I make pot size bet. (8-12bb, Plus or minus 1/4 of stack).

Get raised anywhere from double to all in.

I know I should be suspicious here. But in small$ SNG there are so many idiots, could have A(bigger kicker) etc, but more often any other pair.

Call.

Lose to trip 5's.

Happened twice last night. Is my call a bad bet? Should I fold to the raise?

Doc

[crockpot]

first of all, i can't imagine the blinds and your kicker are not important for this problem.

i think you can safely fold here, for a few reasons. first, all-in raises and min-raises both signify more strength than any raise in between. second, an ace on board scares the living daylights out of someone with an intermediate pair, so they will be unlikely to bet it strongly.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

80-90% of players will wait till the turn to raise with trips. Here's a situation where you might check the flop instead of betting. You're not really risking much by giving a free card when you have ace, small kicker and the flop is A55. If your opponent also checks, bet something on the turn, but be prepared to fold to a raise. You're not going to be raised by a WORSE hand here more than once in a blue moon.

al

[Hotrod0823]

That has happend to me on more than one occassion. I have checked and folded most of those hands when they happen.

I am also not raising 2x BB. Usually, if I have Axs with x being 10 or less I will limp. That way I can get away from the hand if the flop misses me completely. Or I can fold to a big raise PF.

If I have Ace and a face card I will open raise to 3 or 4 BB or just call if there are many limpers.

Hotrod

PS. on your example did you min raise preflop or were you cold calling that raise?

[DrPhysic]

Hotrod, min raise. blind 1bb, i bet 2bb. If I'm going to play, I really don't want to let the bb see 3 free cards.
(I don't absolutely always raise 1, but usually. (and this is prob a case where i shouldn't have.

Doc

[Hotrod0823]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm going to play, I really don't want to let the bb see 3 free cards

[/ QUOTE ]

Never really thought of it that way. I think of it more like I get to see the flop cheaply with a drawing hand and get out if it misses.

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Doc,

With an A and a pair on board, if someone reraises all-in, and you have Ace-rag, you've got to figure you're dead. It may be Ace-Face, or 5x, but someone has your Ace-rag beat, at least at the levels where I play. At the lower levels, you may occasionally be laying down the best hand, but more often than not I think it's a good fold.

Cris

[DrPhysic]

Your pick of books. In fact I think you can find both in DS's books. Buy in cheap w/drawing hand, and If you're going to play you have to raise.

Can't do both.

Doc

[CrisBrown]

Hi Doc,

Sometimes I try to sneak in cheap with drawing hands, and sometimes I raise with them. It depends on the table. If the table is loose, I'll sneak in with a drawing hand, and play it for the implied odds. If the table is tight, and I have good position, I'll come in for a raise, as that gives me a chance to take the blinds and antes (a semi-steal).

I don't think there's any "one size fits all" rule here.

Cris

[DrPhysic]

Thanks guys (and Cris),

My one largest leak (As in: I busted two satellites today with it) is when I get a good looking hand, bet it, and get raised. The better the hand looks, the stronger my tendency to call, without stopping to think about "What can this guy have?"

Busted the 3+Adds tonight with AQs 200/400 blinds, I bet 600 pre-flop one caller. Flop AQ2. I bet 1k. Raised 5k which puts me all in. I called. Pocket ducks.

I have to learn to NOT call very large or all in (re-?) raises when I have a very good looking hand without thinking about what I'm betting against.

Doc

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a situation where you might check the flop instead of betting. You're not really risking much by giving a free card when you have ace, small kicker and the flop is A55.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes -- this is an important point. If you have A8, say, and are ahead on the A55 flop, your opponent can't have more than three outs (and that's only with precisely A7 or A6). Well, a gutshot is possible (four outs), but most people aren't going to play 43 or whatever.

One of the advantages to checking the flop is that even if your opponent catches on the turn, he'll still be drawing to only two outs. For example, suppose your opponent has QT and catches a queen on the turn. Well, since you checked the flop, your opponent could think that he now has the best hand, and bet it accordingly. Or if your opponent checks to you and you make a small bet, he will at least call.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks guys (and Cris),

My one largest leak (As in: I busted two satellites today with it) is when I get a good looking hand, bet it, and get raised. The better the hand looks, the stronger my tendency to call, without stopping to think about "What can this guy have?"

Busted the 3+Adds tonight with AQs 200/400 blinds, I bet 600 pre-flop one caller. Flop AQ2. I bet 1k. Raised 5k which puts me all in. I called. Pocket ducks.

I have to learn to NOT call very large or all in (re-?) raises when I have a very good looking hand without thinking about what I'm betting against.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

If it makes you feel better in a 3+add I get broke with that AQ hand. I think more times than not you are ahead here, and that raise is more often made by AK, A2 or even AJ or A10 a lot more often that 22.

[Guy McSucker]

About the preflop action (just my opinion, very ignorable as usual):

It sounds like Doc was in early position with this hand. I would usually recommend throwing away Ax suited from early position, for a few reasons:

- you're not going to like it if you get action after an ace flops, especially out of position

- your most robust flop is a draw, and draws are not good out of position

- you might quite often be raised before the flop, and then the best play is certainly to fold

In late position, it's a flexible hand: raise if you are first in, playing it for steal value and best-hand value - you have got an ace after all; limp in after several limpers and play a nice multiway pot from good position, mainly looking at your flush draw.

Obviously as the kicker gets bigger the hand becomes more robust: you can be a little more confident when an ace flops, and may make top pair if you hit your kicker too.

I still muck AJ suited from early position a lot of the time, though.

Is this too tight, everybody?

Also, I am not too keen on the minimum raise preflop. I just don't see what it achieves. The BB is likely to call on any two; anyone else who was going to limp will probably still come in. All you do is inflate the pot, out of position with a weak/drawing hand. I would love to hear opinions on this, too.

Guy.

[PrayingMantis]

Hi all,

It's an interesting discussion for me, because I actually never mini-raise in the early stages of an SNG. Later on, when blinds get bigger (and especially when they are huge) it's different, but still, I can hardly remember mini-raising even then.

My thinking is always either to raise 3-5 times the blinds (or bigger, in certain situations), to cut down the field significantly (or take the pot), or to just limp (or fold). Mini-raising always seems to be too weak, or too "strong" (might smell like a trap).

Like Guy, I will also be glad to hear why and when can mini-raises be a good move, since I might be missing something here.


PrayingMantis

[DrPhysic]

Hi PM,

As you know, I am a learner so I will be interested in feedback from the better players on this too.

My thinking on the mini-raise is simple. On a hand where I would normally limp from any position in an unraised pot, I raise 1. I have gone to this approach, then backed off of it several times. It does cost you a bet when you are on a drawing hand and don't draw, of course.

It originates from two thoughts. One is from DS's books which essentially say, in several places, "If you are going to play the hand, raise." The second is: there is nothing that tickles me more than having everybody limp to me in the big blind, and I get to see a flop with a hand I would not bet, and catch two pair, or a trip, or a straight with 52o, or.... doesn't happen all the time. Usually not, but boy does it pay nicely when it does. So the thought is, Don't let the BB see 3 free cards.

It also leaks in the post toasties of the guy who will call a 1/2 bet from the small blind with any two cards, for exactly the same reasons.

Doc

[DrPhysic]

george, or whatever your name is since we know you're NotMitch,

In this case, I could burn my clock thinking about what does he have, and I'm still going to call. I figure he prob has A(something) a lot more often, as you point out, than AA or QQ or 22. The reason for the thinking is: Would he make a pot size re-raise with A(something). W/ AK he prob would. Many low buyin idiots (esp in a 3+addons game) would with A(anything). Against the SNG bunch, I have to think hard about laying down the AAQQ after a pot size re-raise.
(unless it's CrisBrown, of course. She would have T5, because she bets doubles 24,36,etc on the third day after a full moon.)


Doc

[Hotrod0823]

Your right you can't do both. I think then it comes down to position like Guy said. Not to mention how the others at the table will play the hand. Are they frequently limping? Is there a lot of loose raising? Are players only raising premium hands?

I think early I may be inclind to limp planing to muck it at the first sign of a raise.

Late with a lot of limpers I would probably limp with the rest to see the flop cheaply and get out if it misses.

Late with no limpers I would raise 3-4xBB to avoid giving the BB a free look like you pointed out.

Late with a raise in front I think I fold.


Hotrod

How many ways are there to skin this cat? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif