Debate: 23o VS 72o

Hello all --


A my home game the other night, a debate started about which hand was preferred: 23o or 72o. Apparentely there are some books that rate 72o above 23o and my friend agreed.


His thinking was that 72 can make top pair while 23 can only make a str8. Now that I've spent some time thinking about this, I think he is totally braindead. Isn't it impossible to have top pair with 72? By definition, you'd have to have 2-pair or a str8 or better if a 7 is the highest card on the board -- right? Therefore, I'd rather have the ability to use both my pocket cards to make said str8.


Anyway, to make this less confusing -- Is there anyone that would rather play 72o than 23o? Let's assume BB hand and you could pick your hand -- average table texture.


Funny side note -- after this discussion, which got a little heated, he dealt me 23o on the button. Just to be a prick I bet/raised all the way, and hit the str8 on the turn. We all got a good laugh out of that.


-MKPoker

When someone says "top pair", they usually mean top pair ON THE FLOP. So 72o could be top pair if the flop was say, 7-6-3. Also the debate between whether 23o or 72o is a better hand depends on whether the hand is wultiway or heads-up. If you are heads-up with an opponent before the flop and you have 23o, you are guaranteed to be behind(or tied at best). So I think 23o is the worst heads-up hand, because at least 72o is still seven high which beats a fair portion of random starting hands.


On the other hand, I think 23o plays better multiway because of the straight possibilities. Though 72o is better before the flop, 23o has a better chance to improve into a strong hand. IMO, both of these holdings are so weak, they are drawing hands in all multiway pots (and drawing for 2 pair with 72o is a pretty weak draw /images/smile.gif ). That is why I think 23o, with its extra drawing possibilities plays better in multiway pots.


These debates are only academic of course, in that most decent players never play these hands anyway.

If the final board is 2,3,4,5,7, then you could have top pair with 72o. Of course, you're vulnerable to a 6 for a straight.


23o is better because it gives you an extra way to win- with a straight.

72 is better than 32 short handed since the "high card" value matters, such as when you make "top pair" with board 75544. 32 is better against many players for its minute straight potential.


- Louie

one could argue that, with 23o, you know you will not win the pot unless you hit or you bluff. it will not be a calling hand most of the time. this will make you seem either A) maniac-aggressive, if caught bluffing or B) plain old solid aggressive if you show it down as a winner. at least it takes calling out of your game...

minute? you know how many times ive been shown the wheel in low limit hold em louie?

The arguement was that top pair would take it down. In your example, 23457, you'd have two-pair if you held 72, not just top pair.

"because at least 72o is still seven high which beats a fair portion of random starting hands" -- smallfry


Wouldn't 72 *loose* to a "fair" portion of random starting hands? Since you have 7 (8 if you count a better 7x) higher cards and only 5 lower cards?


Obviously 23 would loose a high card fight to any other hand, but then you'd know that going into the hand.

I think 23o is weakest against an unknown random hand before the flop because you know you must draw to win. At least 72o has 15%(a guesstimate) of random hands beat before the flop.


"Wouldn't 72 *loose* to a "fair" portion of random starting hands?" -- MikeK.


Sure it will, that's why it is such a poor starting hand. But I think in the long run, 72o will win more freerolls against random hands than 23o will, simply because 72o can win unimproved against some hands. I'm sure someone has done this on Turbo Texas Holdem. What do the simulators say?