KQs All In call

[Pitcher]

Hi All,

Playing a $30 SitNGo and have T1100. The blinds are 50/100, 5 players left I am in the SB and have KQs. BB is tight so far, and has 2200 chips (I am 4th in chips, 2 stacks, over 2000, one shortstack). Everyone folds to me, I raise to T300, and am immediately re-raised all in. What do you think I should do? Results later.

Pitcher

[Jason Strasser]

I probably fold. Based on your read, this player is probably not capable of a steal raise. KQs is not a great hand to be all in with.

I also would limp in, or raise less, so that this wouldn't be such a difficult situation. Raises from the SB when everyone folds are often not respected, especially on the SNG's on party. With KQs, limp in, see a flop, if u hit top pair, make him pay.

[PrayingMantis]

If you read him as a really tight player, and you were not trying to steal from him too much earlier, I'd say you're in a bit of a problem here, but I guess you better call than not, since you are getting 1.75:1 on the pot, and many times it's a coin-flip here. I would call and hope he has something like KJ, KT, QJ, QT, and not some monster.

Calling is the right move IMO from other reasons: if he's not a complete rock, he might have seen your mini-raise as a shy steal-attempt (I think *I* would), and raise you all-in to push you out.

Which leads to a point I read many times in the tournies forum (also as an advice to some of my own posts): to begin with, you're in an all-in/fold territory, since the big-blind is almost 10% of your stack, plus only 5 players are left, and it will not take much until you dwindle away. So, in your place, I would have probably pushed in, and hope BB calls with a worse hand to double me up, or just leaves me the pot. If he has a better hand and calls - not much you can do at this point. And I would think KQs is too good a hand at this situation to just fold it and wait for a better one. So I'm pushing PF.

Only my thoughts,

PrayingMantis

[heyrocker]

[ QUOTE ]
Which leads to a point I read many times in the tournies forum (also as an advice to some of my own posts): to begin with, you're in an all-in/fold territory, since the big-blind is almost 10% of your stack, plus only 5 players are left, and it will not take much until you dwindle away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been curious lately about what people think is all in or fold territory, or maybe what people think is "all in with any two overcards and pray" territory. For instance, in the above example, when your stack is about 10X BB, I personally am waiting a little bit before pushing it all in, thinking that I probably still have quite a few hands left to see. However I've been thinking lately that maybe this is a weakness in my game, because I do often find myself shortstacked towards the end struggling to survive, whereas if I had pushed in with KT or something earlier, I would either be out or in good shape. I've noticed this at the 2+2 SNGs as well, people who I consider very good players will often go into all in mode much earlier than I would. Anyone have a guideline they work from?

[Pitcher]

Hi PrayingMantis,

The problem I see here is that I would be in a coinflip / slight disadvantage against any A. He does not need a "monster" to put me at a disadvantage.

This player was fairly tight, but no rock. The range of hands I put him on included anything but the smallest pairs, any A with a medium or larger kicker, or any premium hand (duh). That means I am a coinflip at best with any hand he is likely to call with. I don't put him on a steal-re-raise at all.

I did go all in because I figured this was a 45 / 55% deal with more than enough pot odds. Jason is right...KQ is not that strong in this situation....

He had almost exactly what I figured (I guessed AJ specifically) with A-10 and he flopped an A and turned a 10 for 2 pair. I did not improve.

A couple of observations. I do not consider a 3x bet a "mini-raise" at this stage of the tournament. However, I may need to re-evaluate my play in these situations.

I feel committed at this point when I put in that many chips with a decent hand. So the question I have to ask is that if you feel "committed", why not move in pre-flop?

The other side of this is to do as Jason suggested which is to call the flop and see if you hit top pair. At least you don't feel committed to the hand doing this. So, now what happens when he raises my call to say T300 or something like that? If I have A-10, that is what I am going to do. Do you toss it, re-raise, re-raise all in....

[PrayingMantis]

Hey Pitcher,

First, you are right, technically your raise wasn't a mini-raise. I wans't accurate in calling it a mini-raise. But anyway, as for me, it's too shy, and I don't like only calling here either, especially if the BB is a tight player. Why spend almost 10% of your stack to see a flop, that most of the time won't hit you, when you know you are probably much ahead (against ONE random hand). And him being tight makes you even more so - because he'll call (an all-in) only with a really strong hand. He might even muck some Aces you don't really want to to see here, and some small PP's.
That's my thinking anyway. I don't see this one (or your AT example) as limping hands with your stack size and level of blinds.

But maybe some more serious players here could critisize me... I hope so /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

And BTW, I really don't understand why you think KQs is not that strong in that situation (as Jason said too). Of course - after his raise it dosn't look too dreamy, but still! You are in a situation where you need hands NOW. I think this is our main point of disagreement.


PrayingMantis

[CrisBrown]

Hiya heyrocker,

My rule is simple ... if my open-raise would be more than 1/3 of my stack, I move all-in. The reason is that if I'm called for more than 1/3 of my stack, I don't have enough chips left to make a pot-sized raise at the flop, so I have no leverage for the rest of the hand. That being the case, I'd rather go all-in pre-flop, where I can get the most leverage for my chips, and also guarantee myself all five cards if I'm called.

So, let's say I'm short-stacked with 13xBB and I hold QQ; there are two limpers ahead of me. I'm not going to make just a 3xBB open raise here, as the limpers are too likely to call with too many hands. Right now there's 3.5xBB in the pot, and my call would make that 4.5xBB.

On deep money, my open-raise here would be 5xBB or 6xBB (roughly the pot), but that's more than 1/3 of my stack. If I bet 5xBB and I'm called, I have only 8xBB to bet into a 14xBB pot. Any four-plus hand (i.e.: a four-draw plus a pair, or overcards) would be getting good odds to chase me. If an A or K falls on the flop and I fold to an all-in bet, I have only 8xBB left and I'm certainly in all-in/fold territory with any hand I decide to play.

So, even though I have 13xBB left, if I want to get maximum leverage for my stack, my best play here with QQ is to move all-in pre-flop. If I'm called, at least I get to see all five cards. If I lose, I'd rather lose on QQ here than on a desperation all-in later with 88 or J9s or some such.

Cris

[ThingDo]

Cris, this post has been one of the most helfpul so far.

[Pitcher]

PrayingMantis,

I believe the right move was probably all in pre-flop. With a tight opponent, he might laydown some hands I wouldn't like (any A for example). See CrisBrown post on part of that rationale.

That said, KQ is not a great heads up hand against an all in tight player. You are an underdog to so many hands! As said before, any A, any PP, any premium hand. I didn't say a severe underdog...mind you, and of course, I am assuming my opponent won't call me with a total piece of manure.

Pitcher

[PrayingMantis]

Pitcher,

I understand what you are saying. You mean that although most of the time your opponent will fold (and you'll win the blinds, that's T150, without any fight), when he calls, which is the GREAT minority of the time (premium hands), you are probably beaten or less than a coin-flip, which means losing a lot more than T150. Without getting into calculation, I think this is still positively +EV, because the few hands that really kill you are only AA ,KK, QQ, AK, AQ, and even with these you have 20-45% of winnings, depending on the hand (not to mention the smaller chance of him having K or Q, because you are holding one of each).

So overall, you are winning here some important chips against this opponent, and you really need them at this point.



PrayingMantis

[CrisBrown]

Hiya ThingDo,

Thank you for the kind words. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cris