Find out sooner?

Daytime 6-12 at the Mirage.


As I have missed my blinds, I post behind the button plus $3 dead to the pot. UTG, a solid straightforward player raises. All fold to me, and I call with 9d8d. SB folds. BB, an unknown tourist calls.


FLOP: 8c 2h 2d - BB checks, UTG bets, I call, BB calls.


TURN: Js [9c 2h 2d] - BB checks, UTG bets, I call, BB calls.


RIVER: 7d [Js 9c 2h 2d] - BB checks, UTG bets, I fold, BB calls.


RESULT: UTG turns over KK, and BB mucks.


Side Note: Mark S, if you read this, send me an email to the above address.

There's definitely something wrong with the play of this hand.


Why would you call bets on the flop and turn but not the river? If you put him on a big pair, you should fold on the flop (probably even pre-flop with no callers ahead of you) and definitely the turn after you don't pick up a flush draw. You only have two outs left in the entire deck.


If you put him on a hand like AK or KQs, then you should be raising with your two pair to make him pay to draw-out on you.


Calling, Calling, Calling, and Folding had to be the best way to lose as much money as possible.

I lean towards raising, because with the 2's on the board, 3 of your outs are dead if UTG has an overpair. He either has you beaten badly or he is drawing to overcards. It is highly unlikely he will 3 bet you out of position against that board with only overcards. I think you can safely fold to a 3 bet, especially if the tourist calls the 2 cold after you raise.


Given that you flat called the flop, you have to figure that once the tourist calls the flop on that board, he has *some* kind of hand. I fold the turn when I don't pick up a diamond draw or a 9.

I would folded the turn if I did not get my 8 or 9 or a flush draw. Even if UTG had a J you're beaten.

"There's definitely something wrong with the play of this hand."

It certainly looks wrong, but I am not sure where the mistakes are.


"Why would you call bets on the flop and turn but not the river?"

The player would never bet the river with unimproved big cards (in this case only AQ or AK). When the player bets the river, I can safely fold.


"If you put him on a big pair, you should fold on the flop"

Quite frankly, I have not been able to tell whether a player has big cards or a big pair by a pre-flop raise. I doubt I will ever be able to unless I aquire some x-ray glasses or some kind of mind reading device /images/wink.gif


"Calling, Calling, Calling, and Folding had to be the best way to lose as much money as possible."

I can think of many other ways to lose way more money on this hand.


Thank you for your response, it is greatly appreciated. Your post demonstrates my dilema in this hand. As my title to the post suggests, should I have tried to find out my opponents hand sooner?

"I lean towards raising, because with the 2's on the board, 3 of your outs are dead if UTG has an overpair."

Well, I would certainly find out my opponents hands sooner if I raised the flop. It would most likely cause the BB to fold, which might be a good thing.


"It is highly unlikely he will 3 bet you out of position against that board with only overcards. I think you can safely fold to a 3 bet"

I agree completely. In this case, I would have saved one small bet. The way I played the hand, I got to see two cards for the small bet. I am not sure if it was worth it. But the backdoor flush draw probably makes it very close.


"Given that you flat called the flop, you have to figure that once the tourist calls the flop on that board, he has *some* kind of hand."

Because of the way the tourist played the hand, I would expect to see a pair lower than 88. However, this is based on the turn and river play. On the flop, and at my decision time on the turn, I do not think you can put the tourist on any kind of hand.


"I fold the turn when I don't pick up a diamond draw or a 9."

I assume you mean 8. This may be right. Of course after UTG bets there is a little less than 6 BB in the pot. I would have to be pretty sure that my opponent would not bet AK or AQ in this spot.


To be honest, I do not know the best way to play this hand. I will think about some of your options. Thanks

"I would folded the turn if I did not get my 8 or 9 or a flush draw"

Making my second pair really does me no good if UTG has a big pair. But otherwise this may be the right play.


"Even if UTG had a J you're beaten"

The J does not really hurt my hand unless UTG has JJ(there are no other hands UTG would raise with that contain a J). There may also be some affect on whether UTG would bet a no pair hand, but I am not sure.

"The player would never bet the river with unimproved big cards (in this case only AQ or AK). When the player bets the river, I can safely fold."


But what is your reason for calling on the flop and turn? Do you think you have the best hand and choose not to raise? Or are you calling in hopes of catching one of just 2 outs? By calling on the flop and turn with the intention of folding on the river if you don't catch one of those two outs, you're almost always going to be throwing away 1 1/2 big bets.


"Quite frankly, I have not been able to tell whether a player has big cards or a big pair by a pre-flop raise. I doubt I will ever be able to unless I aquire some x-ray glasses or some kind of mind reading device."


Well, you better figure out how to put opponents on hands better or you're going to just be a calling station for them. It doesn't take x-ray glasses or mind reading devices. In your statement above, you were confident that this opponent wouldn't bet on the river with unimporved big cards so you must have known something about him. You called him a solid straight-foward player. This type of player usually raises only with big pairs from early position and will only bet the flop with big cards if he hits the flop immediately. Otherwise, he wouldn't be straight-forward


"I can think of many other ways to lose way more money on this hand."


I suppose you could have raised, raised, raised, and folded to lose more money. The point is you can't regularly call bets pre-flop, on the flop and turn, and then fold on the river to just one more bet with hands like this. Either you've got the best hand and you've got to raise for value or you're beaten and have to fold on the flop. You've got to make your decision (either way) to the best of you abilities when you see the flop. If you call on the flop thinking your 8 is good, then you should be going to the showdown as long as the turn and river cards don't give you reason to believe you've been outdrawn.

You make many mistakes on this hand. Preflop you should muck.You are not getting odds to draw. And the fact that this is a solid player you are up against a very good hand which makes it dangerous if you hit an 8 or 9 because you will more often then not be beaten either from a big pair or if he hits one of his big cards.


Then the flop. You must raise the flop for 2 reasons. To protect your hand if it is good against the BB. Other reason is to find out where you stand with the UTG. If he 3 bets you and is not overly aggressive you are beat. If he is very aggressive you just call him down the rest of the way.


Then on the river you muck for one more bet after going all the way. The pot size warrants a call at this point. You better make absolutely sure he will not bet the river on a bluff. Otherwise you are making a huge error the times you throw the best hand away. You don't have to right very often to make calling correct.

I like the idea of finding out sooner. Raise the flop, after all, you DO have top pair. When you get reraised, check and fold the turn if you don't improve. VERY few players would reraise you here with AK, because even if they are suited, the board is rainbow. In reality, you don't save any money here, because you paid 1.5 BB either way. But if you raise the flop and DON'T get reraised, you might be able to correctly put him on a hand like AK, and take it to the river. If you don't get raised, then you get checked to on the turn, bet, and you might take the pot right there. Also, because you posted, he might put you on a deuce and bail out of the pot. The third player in the pot, especially since he is the BB, is worrysome, and you should be thinking about what he might be calling with here. Is he loose? Would he call with just overcards? Is he likely to have a deuce and be slowplaying it? Raising into him on the flop would probably give you insights to these questions that you can use to make your decisions.


Dave in Cali