Experimenting with A10o

[Jamie Collins]

A while back there was discussion on what's better to limp with UTG: KQo or AJo. At least I think the discussion was about limping. I limp with both unless it's a real tough game.

Anyway, what about A10o? I've started limping with this UTG if I feel the game is good enough. Which is about 50% of the time in the Party 10-20. If the game is tough at all I dump. Comments?

On to the hand in question:

A10o UTG I limp. 3 more limpers. Button raises. SB folds BB calls. I have no read on BB or button yet - isn't online great? Limpers call.

Flop: A J 8 rainbow. BB checks I check limpers check Button bets. I checked here to get a line on the other limpers and also because I believe most Buttons would auto-raise a flop bet with a big pair or paint here but won't bet a pair under Jacks. So why not see the turn for 1 sb or free if possible?

BB cr's the button's flop bet. I thought for a while and called because I put BB on a weak ace trying to limit the field. As I'm writing this I'm now thinking why A10o may suck.

Folded to Button who calls.
Turn: 7 completing the rainbow.
BB checks I bet. Button raises BB folds.
Now I'm thinking Button believes I'm trying to get the button off his hand since the BB has shown weakness. His raise either means 2 pair or KK, QQ/ KJ, QJ. BB folds.
I call. Is this a fold? Am I putting my opponents on hands that I conveniently beat?

River: A. Making board of A J 8 7 A. Another tough decision. Now I'm thinking does opponent have 9-10? AJ? I stick with my read of KK,QQ/KJ,QJ and check intending to call?

Comments? Back to 2-4 stakes?

Regards,

Jamie

[Andy B]

I play too many hands, but I muck ATo UTG every time in reasonably full games, no matter how good the game is. It might be worst hand in the deck.

Betting the flop might be the best way to find out where you're at. I'd probably muck to the BB's check-raise. One of them probably has you beaten, and even if you're ahead, you can still be outdrawn. Having called the flop, I would check the turn and hope that it either it got check-raised again so that I could muck with a clear conscience or that I got to see the river for free. When the button raises the turn, I think he's saying he's all over AT, so I'd muck. Check-calling the river is fine, although there is a good case for betting.

[mikelow]

Sometimes I fold ATo in an early position. I think it's an overrated hand. I will play it in loose, passive games.

[JPolin]

I don't like limping with either KQo or AJo. If I'm gonna play those hands, I bring them in with a raise. I'm not fond of limping UTG unless the game is very good, loose, and passive. Then my spectrum of playable hands increases considerably.

Now to address your hand. In a normal/tough game, I don't like playing A10o at all. But since you're already in, here's my two cents:

Flop: I see three options. You can bet out and let the resulting action dictate your play, check and call subsequent bets, or check and fold if the temperature is hot. You chose option 2 and I like that option the least for several reasons. First, you're investing heavily in a situation where you don't know where you are. Secondly, you are encouraging more calls that may suck out on you, and lastly your hand is only going to get weaker as the hand progresses.

I think checking is ok, but when BB check-raises it's time to get out. A perfect illustration of why not to play A10o UTG.

I guess when you get to the turn betting is ok once the BB checks, but you can't like that raise at all. On the river you hit a dream card, now you have to call. I would not be surprised to see you lose this pot though. BTW I think 910s is a possibly button holding, and that he raised preflop to build equity.

-Justin

[Zele]

Yes, I think that hand illustrates why you shouldn't play ATo UTG. I really don't like the turn call. If you think the BB is taking a shot at Button, reraise and isolate him. But I think you're beat most of the time here and folding is the way to go.

[andyfox]

I'm not a fan of limping in any event, but here you limp UTG and there are 4 players behind you and you have A-T.

That's why I don't limp. Especially UTG.

[Jamie Collins]

Thanks for the response Andy,

"I'm not a fan of limping in any event, but here you limp UTG and there are 4 players behind you and you have A-T.

That's why I don't limp."

That's why I limp: when I believe several players will limp behind with dominated hands that they would fold to a raise: Ax, K-10,Q-10,J-10,10-9. Yes, there are some advantages to playing 10-9 vs. A-10 in a large pot, but 10-9 doesn't always make a straight or flush.

A-J is the one that will bite you however.

Now in this case it was raised preflop which makes the hand unprofitable. But if the game is
loose passive it MAY be profitable, I don't know. Everyone has always said, "Ooh A-10o bad limp". I guess I want to know if that's the case in my games. However, most things said by competent posters turn out to be true for most games so we'll see.

But the presence of people behind me solely doesn't make this unplayable or not playable for me. Other factors are involved. If I thought no one would limp behind I would raise.

Regards,

Jamie

[Tyler Durden]

Does anyone think I'm giving up too much by routinely folding AT in EP? I don't. Why do I do it? Glad you asked. B/c I usually play two tables and my autopilot settings include folding AT up front. I'll occasionally fold KQ and AJ there too. Why? Again, glad you asked. B/c I choose to save my brain cells for the hands that play themselves until one of my crazy opponents does something crazy.

Or something like that.

[bobbyi]

I don't think limping is right here, but for it to even be close, the game must be such that all of the opponents will play any ace and will pay off all the way if they flop a pair of aces with it. The game simply being a generic loose and passive game is not.

Also, for ATo to be anywhere close to profitable, you need to pick your spots postflop. The check-raise on the flop is a clear sign that you need to fold. In fact, I think the reason to check on the flop is so that you can fold if you see this kind of action.

Yes, you could still be ahead, but if you're not, you don't have much chance of cathing up and getting to the river could be expensive. If you're ahead, you may not be far ahead. Even if you think the flop raiser is likely to have a weak ace, you have to worry that the preflop raiser may hold AK/AQ/AJ.

[Noo Yawk]

A-10o....Raise to isolate a weak player or raise to steal the blinds.Period. UTG it's worthless and is going to cost you money in a full gsme. Besides the 2 examples I gave, I wouldn't pay 2 cents for the hand. In loose games if you never played off-suit high cards besides AK in early position, you wouldn't be giving up very much.

[Jamie Collins]

Thanks for the response bobbyi,

A generic loose passive game means not much raising and a lot of calling right? Sounds like the condition where a marginal hand COULD be profitable.

So if this were the best possible loose passive game - is it playable? I say yes but I think others disagree. So for me the question is how loose/passive: If there have only been raises preflop 10% of the time, is it playable? 50%? 1.0%?

Let's say it was profitable because the game was really loose passive with only 5% raising preflop. Then either this was one of those 5%'s or I need to re-evaluate my ability to judge a game - which could be the problem.

Regard,

Jamie

[Jamie Collins]

Thanks for the response NY,

"In loose games if you never played off-suit high cards besides AK in early position, you wouldn't be giving up very much."

You don't play AQo in a loose passive game? Calling or raising is +ev in my games.

A10o is a different story and I don't fault those who don't play it. I haven't played it up until 2 weeks ago.

Regards,

Jamie

[biggambler]

Funny thing about these hands. According to the computer experts: AJ is better agaist KQ heads up. But, KQ is a better hand in a ten handed game.

[Jamie Collins]

I think in this particular case results are irrelevant since I may have misplayed every street. Especially the call of the BB's flop cr. A 3-bet may have been preferred to a call to drive out Button's POSSIBLE worse but dangerous hand. But a flop fold is probably better.

I think I needed the parlay in my head to hit: 50% chance button was raising the flop for a free card, 50% chance BB is cr-ing a weak Ace. So 25% chance I'm good, big pot what the hell. Which I almost never do....call 2 bets cold on the flop.

Anyway, button checked behind on the river and my hand was good but I don't think I played it well, so I posted it. Thanks for all the responses.

Maybe someone else can start a thread about AJo/KQo UTG. For most occasions, I don't think the games are tough enough at the 10-20, 15-30 level to making limping -ev.

For those that never limp first in then I guess it's a moot point!

Regards,

Jamie

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Jaimie,
In a really loose game, I'll raise with AQo if I can knock out some of the better players behind me. If not, I tend to limp with the hand up front.
I prefer pairs and suited connectors in real loose games. Set's and straights are where the money's made in these games, not top pair. Top pair is usually for paying off. Against a large field you need a stronger hand than normal.
In normal games I always raise A-Qo up front. I tend to Limp with KQo and AJo, except in more aggressive games where I fold them.

[sweetzer]

Tyler, that brings up a good question of how much do you go on autopilot and how much do you give up in observation by playing two games. I am more comfortable with it once I got a big enough monitor to spread them out, but the observation lessens. How do you think this affects your expectation, in terms of 2x one game, 1.6 x one game. Of course, two games should also level out the fluctuation.

[ZeeJustin]

Even the people that are suggesting folds are giving off that "too loose" aura. I play 6 max games mostly, and I fold ATo utg in those. My consciousness would have to be very very altered before I played ATo in EP at a full table.

[Jamie Collins]

Hello ZeeJustin,

How about AJo?

Regards,

Jamie

[daryn]

wow.. i muck ATo UTG even in the 6 max 10-20

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
How about AJo?

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo I will always open raise utg 6 handed, and probably most of the time 7 handed too. I think it should be folded utg 8 handed though.

[daryn]

my sentiments exactly.. i am surprised to hear that some people are raising AJo utg in full handed games, especially as high as 15-30..

[shemp]

How do you get in any hands? I often play ajo utg in 15/30, and I'm seeing ~17% of flops -- that's total, not just outside the blinds. And I get out of line elsewhere too...

[ZeeJustin]

Maybe you underestimate the value of position. Just a guess. I probably play looser than the average bear in the CO and on the button. I also defend my big blind with fairly bad hands that people on this site often advocate folding. I'm just above 17% flops seen btw. Don't forget that this number goes way down in tight games (even if you play slightly looser) just because there are less flops.

[daryn]

ok.. you often play AJo utg.. do you come in for a raise? what if you're 3-bet? do you dump it right there? or do you call hoping for a jack? you don't want to see an ace on the flop do you? or will you pay it off? all questions you wouldn't have to answer had you just mucked it

[andyfox]

"If I thought no one would limp behind I would raise."

I'd do the opposite. If I thought others would limp behind, I would raise. I don't want anybody behind me when I have A-T. I can't remember winning too many hands with A-T against 4 or 5 players.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
you come in for a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn skippy.

[ QUOTE ]
what if you're 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I stare glumly at my opponent for 2 minutes, then say, "well, chester, I think you're gonna get me this time."

[ QUOTE ]
do you dump it right there?

[/ QUOTE ]

No... I'm getting 6-1, and tho out of position, I like myself here against 77, etc. versus a lot of opponents, and I can sometimes punish strong hands that I outflop, and an A-high bd will often make for an easy fold. Against many opponents I expect to fold overcards on the flop, and feel a bit weepy.

[ QUOTE ]
or do you call hoping for a jack?

[/ QUOTE ]

I try and stay out of the hope business, but when there, I tend to hope for flopping quads.

[ QUOTE ]
you don't want to see an ace on the flop do you? or will you pay it off?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've answered this.

[ QUOTE ]
all questions you wouldn't have to answer had you just mucked it

[/ QUOTE ]

On tables where those questions terrify me, I need to have the Fish of the Century on my right hand to stay planted, I'm not thinking about AJ utg. When those questions concern me, I may/may not play AJo utg. When they do concern me it may be because I'm liable to get 5 cold callers as often as I'm concerned because of the likelihood I'm 3-bet and heads up out of pos. I probably play it around 50%, and usually for a raise. Maybe less, not more.

[Jamie Collins]

Hi Andy,

I'm assuming I'm misunderstanding you on this point.

Me: "If I thought no one would limp behind I would raise."

You: "I'd do the opposite."

If you had a "good" feeling that everyone was folding then you would limp? I would raise and hope the blinds folded.

You wrote: "If I thought others would limp behind, I would raise."
I would too if I thought no one would call. A10o is in trouble against most hands that would call a raise or 3-bet. Which logically may bring us to "Then don't play it." Which is what I've always done except for the last 2 weeks.

For me, IF there is any value in A10o UTG it is in limping in loose passive games where people will limp along with K-10, Ax hands. For this reason I'm guessing it will prove to be break even or slightly -ev but not as bad as others believe.

Next question: Why would I employ a break even or slightly -ev proposition?....well I'm evaluating AJo and KQo as well and want to see the numbers for myself. But the benefit of the forum's experience may allow me to cut a -ev experiment short.

Regards,

Jamie

[Gabe]

Somewhere along the line I started believing that ATo and KJo were trouble hands. I think I fold these hands more than anyone I play with. Maybe I’m too tight?

I’ll raise ATo in late or maybe middle position if I think it will buy the button. I’ll raise an average to weak limper from late or maybe middle position if I think it will buy the button. I might raise two weak limpers from late position if I could buy the button. Theoretically, I would raise a limper or two from the button, if I would ever play against people who play tight in the blinds.

I reraise on in the small blind if someone is stealing. I reraise on the button if CO is stealing. I raise or reraise in the blinds if head-up.

I fold ATo in early position. I fold if someone limps and I don’t think I can buy the button. I fold if someone raises, unless he’s nuts, then I reraise or fold, depending on position and players left to act. I fold ATo if there are three limpers and I don’t have the button.

I limp with ATo on the button if there are limpers. I limp in the small blind if there are limpers.

[shemp]

ATo and KJo are not good hands for me; I think they are weak and don't play well in raised or unraised heads up or multiway pots. I'll raise a couple of chimpers (chimp limpers) from the button or cutoff when I'm feeling heroic because I'm certain it has immediate profit, and I may open raise from late middle+ when I'm frisky. I may limp on the button after a couple of limpers when I'm feeling chimpy.