Player and railbird didn't like this

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Well, the car's in the shop so I'm not at work this morning. 2-table 20's on 'Stars aren't filling so I jump into a $10.

We're down to 8 players, blinds are 100/200/a25 about 2 minutes until the blinds double. I'm in 3rd right now with 4035 before posting my ante.

Folded to me in the CO with 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I make it 700 to go.

Button hesitates and goes all-in for 1290, blinds fold and it's back to me with 2490 in the pot and 590 to call. I figure this is a big overlay against the range of hands he might have and call.

Board comes (Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)(5 /images/graemlins/club.gif)T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

and I take it down. Railbird from whom we have heard nothing types "lol. ridiculous" Short-stack types "that just isn't right."

Who doesn't call that all-in?

[DougBrennan]

Kurn,

Given the situation you found after your steal attempt (I assume that's what you were doing) I believe you call of 590 to be absolutely correct. The only way I wouldn't call would be if my finger, operating on the "They raised my steal I have to fold" priciple hit the fold button before my brain processed the pot odds.

And if you tried to explain pot-odds to your fans there you'd likely get a lot of "WTF?"

Nicely played last night, by the way.

And finally, I wish my car would break down on a Friday. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Prickly Pete]

You obviously don't like the raise, but you're right. It's definitely a call for you.

Give em a smiley face. They clearly don't get it. No reason to let them think you do.

[wayabvpar]

Once you made a raise of 700, no way 590 more all in should push you out. Good call. Even better, the other players are gonna have a hard time putting you on a hand the rest of the tournament, which is always +EV.

What did the short stack have? AK? I can see why he was bitter if that is the case, but that is poker!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

your steal attempt (I assume that's what you were doing)

This may be off topic, but it touches on what I think is a key concept in NL tournament play. There's a saying that goes something like this, "Each poker hand essentially begins as a struggle for the antes."

In the middle stages of a tournament, the purpose of *every* preflop raise I make is to take the chips that are already in the pot. It doesn't matter whether I have AA or 32. I want the blinds. If any action follows my raise, I assess the situation and proceed. How often, or with what range of hands, I raise is going to depend on the dynamics present at the table and how willing I am to play my cards if called. In this case, the blinds both have stacks in the range of mine and they weren't playing too aggressively, so I thought there was a reasonable chance they'd fold, but if one of them called me, I'd be comfortable playing 97s with position after the flop.

Table dynamics are key. I might raise and take the blinds from the SB, then again from the button, and on the very next hand get a better hand than the other two and fold it because the table dynamics dictate that I am now more likely to get played back at.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but the range of hands with which I raise varies based on a number of criteria, but regardless of the cards, my purpose when I raise is always the same.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

What did the short stack have? AK?

Duh. Left out a key piece of info. Button had A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[PrayingMantis]

I think this is a good example why I find such steal-raises (with almost any 2 cards) good moves against CERTAIN players w/ small stacks:

1. If you have a good read on him, as a player who'll wait too much for premium hands while short stacked - he will fold most of the time.

2. If he raises all-in, you probably have the odds to call, no matter what.

3. Regardless if you win a showdown or not, you have now a wild image, which if you use right, can help you as the game goes on.

That's my thinking.

And of course, great game yesterday. It was a pleasure, and an important lesson in SNG play. Whoever thinks that these 2+2 games are only social fun, misses a priceless opportunity to improve his game. I actually used some of my new thoughts regarding aggressiveness in late stages, to win the next SNG I played.


PrayingMantis

[JDO]

You obviously should have laid down your hand rather than try to steal the blinds. Then when you were raised, you were supposed to pee your pants and run away like a little boy. What are you doing, calculating pot odds, or something? I thought you knew how to play this game /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[JDO]

Very interesting post. This quote "Each poker hand essentially begins as a struggle for the antes," really puts pre-flop play into perspective.
I do have a minor question in regard to this statement: In the middle stages of a tournament, the purpose of *every* preflop raise I make is to take the chips that are already in the pot.
Does *every* mean the vast majority? You never raise pre-flop to build a pot?
Just curious and thanks for the post.

[Pitcher]

Hi Kurn,

I was just reading Theory of Poker again about the struggle for the blinds. Blind stealing is the key to winning Sit N Go's (not finishing in the money).

But what most interested me was this quote

[ QUOTE ]
Table dynamics are key. I might raise and take the blinds from the SB, then again from the button, and on the very next hand get a better hand than the other two and fold it because the table dynamics dictate that I am now more likely to get played back at.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have found mid tourney (4-6 players left) that if I steal the blinds twice in a row uncalled, I will not play the next hand (especially if the BB is shortstacked) unless I have a premium hand. I will limp with very good hands, mini raise or trap with premiums (group 1 hands) and fold everything else. Of course, even this depends on table dynamics, just a general observation.

Pitcher

[Cornbread Maxwell]

Boo hoo for all of them, but it was an automatic call, and I'd be happy to see AJo there, since your cards are live and you're not that far behind. That is why it's better to raise than to call, in fact, if given a choice I'd rather have to raise allin with 97h than have to call an allin with AJo, in most situations.

However, when you are 'stealing', you need to make sure that the raise won't be against a player who will feel committed to the pot after posting his blinds. For example, if the T1300 player were on the BB, I'd hesitate to raise T700 with 97h because if he re-raises allin, it will be a difficult situation. Of course in your situation the guy was on the button so there was nothing you can do, I'm just pointing this out because I see players make this mistake sometimes.

Anyways, it sounds to me like you played it correctly, and remember, stealing blinds is *rarely* ever wrong, especially if it's a good situation (i.e. right before the bubble) and you know the players relatively well.

Sometimes you get lucky in poker, but I have absoltely no disgust for someone who is pot committed preflop with 97h and makes a 'bad beat' as opposed to a player with a huge stack cold calling another large stack allin with AJo vs the raiser's AKs and bad beats them by catching a J. One relatively sure sign that you're a good poker player is that you *rarely* are unnecessarily calling allins with the worst of it.

[jomatty]

that call is automatic but the PF raise is one i usually dont make. im not being critical as this could be a leak in my game. just curious what others have to say. i usually wait until the blinds increase and some of the self destructing loose players who will automatically call or move in with seemingly anything get weeded out. i want to be invlolved in their self destruction just with a quality hand. i would fold this hand this early. i use a very tight early and agg late strategy in these. others thoughts would be appreciated

GL matty

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

However, when you are 'stealing', you need to make sure that the raise won't be against a player who will feel committed to the pot after posting his blinds.

Excellent point. Had the BB in this case had, say, under 1000, I would have folded instead of raising. In this case the blinds were the two stacks that had me covered.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You never raise pre-flop to build a pot?

Never say never, but in NL, building a pot has a trap built in. You may inadvertantly let the pot get so big that it becomes impossible on later streets for you to deny draws the proper odds to call.

[PrayingMantis]

I just realized I read your original post completely wrong (I was in a hurry or something), and wrote my reply as if your opponent was on BB, and you on the SB, hence my thinking about "him folding most of the time". I feel like an idiot. I'll read much more accurately from now on...

But I have now 2 question, regarding your specific hand:

A. If you say the blinds are the two stacks that have you covered, it's not that you are putting pressure on them with T700 raise, but - I guess you still don't want them to call you with this kind of hand. So, you are raising with 97s because you think they respect your raises already, but if so, it's either you didn't raise much in that game from CO position, or that you raised only with good hands, that they saw on showdown or otherwise. Am I right? But you are probably not the kind of player who raises only with premium hands, or who doesn't raise at all. There is a kind of paradox here.

B. When you open-raise like that from CO, no matter with what hand, don't you think people will tend to see it as steal, and call/raise with wider range of hands (including short stack button) so you might actually need a better hand to raise from this specific position?

Hope my questions are clear,

PrayingMantis

[CrisBrown]

Hi jomatty,

[ QUOTE ]
i would fold this hand this early.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misread his post. This was a two-table SNG -- 18 entrants -- at the final table with 8 left, and 100/200 blinds plus 25 antes. This wasn't "early."

Cris

[Al_Capone_Junior]

1. railbird backseat drivers online should be packed into a boat, taken the the middle of the ocean, and sunk. There, I said it. I'm a hostile SOB, I know, but we all think it, I just said it out loud....

2. You played in a very reasonable manner, I have no criticism of anything here, and I would have probably played exactly the same, including the initial raise.

al

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Kurn,

There was nothing "ridiculous" about this. You had a good blind-stealing hand at this stage in a tourney, and you'd have been happy to just pick the blinds. But a short stack went all-in, and you easily had pot odds to call and take a chance on busting him. You caught "lucky" as a 2:1 dog.

So?

Cris

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
1. railbird backseat drivers online should be packed into a boat, taken the the middle of the ocean, and sunk.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, neither the railbird nor the other player directly criticized Kurn's play. All the railbird said was "ridiculous", probably meaning it was ridiculous that 97 would beat two bigger cards. Hardly deserved to be fed to the sharks for that!

When players use chat to berate other players I'm the first to tell them it's inappropriate, but that's not what happened here. There's nothing wrong with typing "unbelievable" and suchlike when an underdog wins the hand.