Flop Play: Pair plus a Flush Draw

[fsuplayer]

I am still unsure on how to play when I hit a pair with a flush draw. If it was bet, should I make a raise...if so, how large? In EP, do I lead out and bet it myself. With top pair and a flush draw I know I am in very nice shape most of the time, but is it worth most of my stack on the flop with a shallow stack? What about a deep one?
Here is a hand where I think I misplayed it badly, but would like to know how to play it differently.
NLHE $50 Party
Just sat down 15 min ago. I have $40 in the small blind.
villian is in LP with $100 or so.
Me: 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I complete after 3 limpers, BB checks.
Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Nice SB flop I think so I lead out for $3 into a $4 pot...anybody else do this, or should I have waited to see what else was out there first?
Folded to the LP who raises to $8.
What is your next move? Pot size is $15, I have $36 left.
My thinking was that I was either ahead, with my pair and he was raising his flush draw, or I was slightly behind his king, but I had 14 outs twice to make me even money or a favorite. Thinking that, and my position sucked I pushed.
He called immediately with Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and won when his queen spiked on the turn(no diamonds ever came).
Thinking back, I really hate my play on this hand, but how should I have played it? What if I had top pair with that flush draw? Thanks guys.

[Fistdantilus]

Your push wasn't hideous, but it wasn't great either. This isn't a "normal" pair+flush draw hand because you are drawing so low on both ends. The pair of 3's is almost worthless, and if a 4th diamond comes you are almost sure to lose.

Key point: Having one of your cards be an overcard is where you derive most of the advantage in these types of hands.

I would suggest running simulations on www.twodimes.net (http://www.twodimes.net) to see why pushing was a bad idea. Here's some ideas to run similar to your hand, and how a few changes drastically alter the stats:

3dQd
JdTd

3d5d
AsKs

3d5d
AdKs

3dAd
QdTd

But I can't criticize you too bad...you were a .004% favorite when the money went in. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fistdantilus

[fsuplayer]

Thanks fist,
I just wanted to make sure I was forcing him to make a bad call on the flop... /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Thats just profit to the bankroll if i can keep getting him to do that.
Thanks for the advice, I agree that the pair and the draw should be higher to push. Should I have folded though? What about with top pair and flush draw in a similar situation? Then push, or just call a reraise?

[Fistdantilus]

Top pair+top flush draw is obviously the best, but having top pair OR top flush draw with the other is still very good. Those hands are all-pushable if you so choose.

I don't think you should have folded, but I think you could have lost less by simply calling. Better pair+flush draws are worth pushing back at him, but not this one. At this limit people are not generally sophisticated enough to raise for the free card, and I would have put him on TPTK at least if not 2 pair/set. Against top pair, you are slightly behind (way behind if he has a bigger diamond), and way behind anything better.

The problem is this:

You call, the turn comes blank, you check, and he pushes you all-in. In the hand you gave, I think you have to fold in that situation.

Fistdantilus

[Ray Zee]

you try to play these hands to get it headup and force them to call an allin bet, and hope they fold. if they call, you are close with most of the hands you run against, so not too bad.
by playing big pots here, you let them know you are willing to gamble and when you do play a big one you dont have to have the nuts.
it is easier to play this in no limit rather than pot as then it is harder to run someone off.
these are great hands as you kind of get a freeroll at a decent sized pot.

[The Dude]

I like your push a lot more than some other replies you've gotten. Of course it depends somewhat on the player you're against, but generally I think pushing here is fine.

Benefits of pushing:
1. Many better hands will fold (including better diamond draws).
2. You still have plenty of outs against a hand like KJ (or any other K he just didn't raise with preflop).
3. You gain the ability to get called when you have a monster.

Just because he didn't fold his diamnd draw this time (with no overcards to the board I likely would have), doesn't mean he won't often enough to make this play work.

When he is ahead on the flop (which he ISN"T here), you still have outs to win (important when semi-bluffing).

I know WAY to many players who always slowplay monsters, so when they push on the flop I know they don't have it. I've showed down a flush draw I pushed on the flop enough that people call my sets when I push them on the flop. This is huge, especially if you are playing live or with a regular crowd. The average online player won't pay as much attentino, but it's still relevant.

[theBruiser500]

I don't think you push here because you can almost expect a call. Online $50 PP you play because when you get a hand you get payed off. If you flop top set you can move all in and someone will call you with middle pair, that's what makes it so profitable. However, if you expect that call in that situation, you can't then semi-bluff and hope they fold. I'd call here, and if you hit your flush or two pair on the turn try and get all your money in (you would just happen to get unlucky in that he has a higher flush) and if you miss on the turn and he makes a big bet, just fold. Adjust your play for the players, that's how I'd play it at least.

danny