Craps can it be beaten with manipulating the dice?

[lefty rosen]

Not cheating using loaded dice or sliding, but being able to manipulate the numbers with subtle flicks of the wrists?

[Jezebel]

There is a guy in my local homegame that swears it can be done. Needless to say, he is a great guy to have in our game. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Wildbill]

It has been done and I have seen it for myself in a real casino. I was stunned. Thing is that it isn't perfect, you can't tell the guy hey throw an 8 or 10 next roll and he can do it. What he did was make sure one number did not land. If you placed an 8 and got the thrower to eliminate a 1 from a die, you are getting paid 7 to 6 on an even money proposition. It is a subtle change, but a very profitable one when done. Now I don't know how much this guy does it and I was told I could never talk to him about it, but someone that knew him and was somehow involved arranged for me to see it and what exactly to carefully watch for and I was fairly convinced that he did have some control over the dice. It had everything to do with the precision in which he threw the dice, hitting the perfect spot each and every time. Simply put I am sure someone that accurate could find other profitable ventures with their precision /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jezebel]

We have an opening in our home game if you would like to join /images/graemlins/grin.gif

If the guy is that precise in tossing a couple of cubes, he would probably make more money playing professional darts. At least in darts, you don't have to worry about a corragated backboard randomizing your throws.

[Wake up CALL]

I will provide a link where you can discuss this subject till your heart's content. All You Will Ever Need To Know About Craps (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&group=rec.gambling.craps) You can do a search for Precision or precision shooters and read for hours.

[Wake up CALL]

Lefty I found a better place to go. No need to read about precision dice tossing when for only $34.95 you are able to purchase this guaranteed method to success. Buy Axis Power Craps Here (http://axispower.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=axibook&action=display&num=1021356 280)

[shemp]

Um. Dood. I'm shattered. cheers, shemp

[Wildbill]

The backboard on the table is very consistent, that is the key to it all. With absolute precision it is not a randomizer, especially since he hit the table in an exact spot first, then the die hit the backwall in the same spot and the die landed in almost the same spot. The key to avoiding detection for him was that the second die was random, but landed fairly close to the "fixed" die". You just had to see it for yourself, you never would guess it without the intro, but when you watch it for yourself it is a clinic of pure precision. The point of release, the motion of the hand, the way the dice flew, the spot it landed...very perfectly controlled and impossible to detect because after all, the guy still had a 50/50 chance of hitting a seven.

But I totally agree, there are many things this person could do that would earn him good money from such precision.

[Dynasty]

I don't think this could be done in Las Vegas. The only craps tables I ever notice are the ones at the Mirage. The backboard of these tables are not smooth. They have pyramid like indentations which will cause any die which hits it to be deflected in an unpredictable direction.

I think these backs are similar in theory to roulette wheels which cause the ball to bounce randomly when it hits the trough.

I'm sure if someone in Vegas were obviously manipulating the dice, they would be required to hit the backboard on every throw.

[Easy E]

"The backboard of these tables are not smooth. They have pyramid like indentations "

was that the pyramid backing was consistant enough to take advantage of, not that they were flat? Not sure- wildbill?

What I've heard about these types of shooters is that they like to have the dice come to rest right against the backdrop without bouncing off of the wall.

[Wildbill]

If you throw something perfectly every time, it will hit that backwall perfectly every time. I didn't talk to him so I am not sure how much different the back wall is from table to table, but I am guessing he knows their setup to the millimeter. That is all it really takes, yes it does randomize the dice if you throw a random throw at it. And just realize the brilliance of the move he does just setting up one dice and removing one number from it. He isn't rigging the whole throw and that makes it near impossible to detect. Further that set die lands on different numbers, just he manages not to throw the number he would benefit least from giving himself a nice fat edge. In the example I saw he put $5 on the line (table minimum) and triple odds. He then placed $60 on the 6 or 8. If it hit he pressed it. He had a good run one time and got it up to $240 and had taken some profits. Imagine he is laying $5, so 7 cents of negative EV. On the 6 or 8 he has $240 and gets paid $280 if he wins. He is shooting with 50/50 odds if his throws indeed are perfect. So his EV on that is $20/wager and if he has cohorts also betting that number hard they add to the edge. I don't know what his real bet patterns would be, maybe it was just a putting on the show demonstration amount.

[Zeno]

Every craps table I have seen in Vegas or at Indian casinos or any other casino I have ever been in have the pyramid type structure around the sides of the table. You have to hit the back wall for a clean throw.

The art of supposedly manipulating the die (mechanics) is a con. It cannot be done if the dice are tossed by the rules. Perhaps the art is making it appear the dice (or die) hit the back wall but even then I am very skeptical. No human can throw a pair of fair die perfectly every time. I do not believe in miracles.

-Zeno

[Zeno]

This is a con. No one can do this if using fair die and throwing according to the rules of the game. And no human can throw a pair of die perfectly every time. I no more believe this than that people can bend spoons with their minds.

-Zeno

[William]

I like the part about the mental edge. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[shemp]

the beauty of this claim is that it is stronger than loaded die -- dude never rolls an ace!

[Wake up CALL]

" In the example I saw he put $5 on the line (table minimum) and triple odds. He then placed $60 on the 6 or 8. If it hit he pressed it."

This might be a good time to mention that if he was eliminating one number from one die rolling he was also reducing his chances of throwing a six (if the eliminated number was 1) or both a six and an eight (if the eliminated number were 2 thru 5) or just an eight (if the eliminated number were 6).

He has now cost himself more than he gained by this precision throwing routine coupled with the betting pattern you outlined. In fact if his comeout number is anything other than 8 9 or 10 he has given the house an even greater edge unless he then changes the eliminated number. If he claims to do this then WildBill you have just been renamed Buffaloed' Bill.

[Wildbill]

You got it all wrong there. He only bet one direction or the other. If he was on the 6, then you knew he was going to eliminate the 6 on the die. If he was on the 8, the 1 was going to be taken away. Once again he still is a 50/50 shot on a 7/6 payout. The couple times he had a 6 or 8 on the come out he just left his place bet up on that number and then took max odds, making his payoff even better as he was getting 6/5 on the odds.

I don't think any one would believe it if they didn't see it. I didn't think it could be done, but I saw it for myself. I wasn't rushing out to invest in the guy, but hey he made me a nice profit during that one session and it was one of those types of things you just had to see once in your life. He didn't miss, that is all I can say. Whether it was lucky or not, you can decide, but I was told of what he could do and he did exactly as advertised in a live craps game in a casino right in the middle of the Strip. The guy hit the same exact spot with one die every single time, where it landed on the table and where it hit the wall, and how it spinned off the wall. In about 50 rolls the die he was supposed to control never came up the number he was supposed to avoid. Sure it isn't quite a big enough sample to declare perfect, but the way he did everything makes me think there was far more to it than luck.

[Terry]

This thread doesn’t seem to want to die, so I’m going to put in my two cents worth.

I spent quite a few years dealing and supervising Craps games in Vegas. There are several scammers who have been working over tourists for a long time. Some of them get the tourist to put up the money for a session and take a cut if they win, some of them simply steal the tourists chips during the heat of the action, and some do both. I am at least 99.99% certain that the guy you saw fits one of those categories.

There are some guys who have a table at home and who practice for so many hours that they actually get callouses on their hands from their “precision grip” but if any of them were actually able to do what they claim, they wouldn’t be out scouting for tourists to put up a bankroll – and they most assuredly wouldn’t be demonstrating their ability to random strangers.

[Zeno]

That was my first impression also - it is a con job. Your post, in my opinion, confirms it.

-Zeno

[Wildbill]

Alright, I will let it die with my $290 in profits /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Zeno]

Glad you won Wildbill. Take the money and run. I'm just as skeptical as ever however.

-Zeno