How can anyone with a brain support the Patriot Act?

[Redhot_man]

First of all, the Patriot Act was supposed to temporary. It was hurried into legislature shortly after 9/11 because it was believed that without these unconstitutional privilages, the government could not effectively fight terrorism. It has now been three years and the highly criticized Patriot Act is to be renewed, atleast these are Bush's plans. Should the goverenment have the right to rip up the constitution? I dont know about all of you, but I value my 4,5,8 amendments greatly. One has to wonder if the government will ever relenquish its new found powers. Historically, governments constantly get stronger and more powerful, and rarely acquiesce any powers they are able to obtain. The governed and governers are constantly in a struggle with eachother, and it has become obvious that the ball is most definitely in the governers court. What will our country be like in 20 years? 30 years? Atleast Dubbya doesnt have a male heir.

[Redhot_man]

the below threads inspired me to investigate this aprty and its platforms, and I must say I was close to sending a paypal donation. Man, do they hit the nail on the head.
How a human being can be ignorant enough to call themselves a republican or a democrat is beyond my comprehension.

"The only thing worse then a trent lott republican is a hilary clinton democrat."

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing worse then a trent lott republican is a hilary clinton democrat

[/ QUOTE ]

almost, but good ol' super-bitch tipper gore ranks right up there with the hillary dems.

al

[CrackerZack]

How can someone support it? Its quite easy. People were and are afraid. And rightfully so. As someone in new york city on september 11th, as someone who works at a company who's office was reduced to rubble and a number of my co-workers sitting around me today evacuated those buildings, as someone who witnessed the fall of each tower live and in living color, heard the 2nd plane hit, people standing on top of tower 1, engulfed in black smoke, some trying to climb down the side of a 1500 foot building and rarely making it a floor, a couple holding hands jumping from the top continuing to hold hands until one of the two hit something on the way to the ground and was obliterated while the other continued on the final few hundred feet to the ground below, ran down as far south as we were allowed trying to get to stuyvesant high school to find a co-workers cousin, standing around Chambers St after the collapse where it looked like a volcanic eruption as cars had almost a foot of grey dust on them, I can understand people's fear. And it is justified. While I am also completely against some aspects of the patriot act especially extended detainment without being charged, I will accept certain infringements to feel safer. I don't love the wire tapping/surveillance aspects of it, I'll accept some of it. I completely support the financial monitoring aspects of it. I don't feel like going into every aspect as I'm sure others will, but before questioning if people actually have a brain, attempt to understand why they could feel this way.

Zack

[CrackerZack]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who believes in all ideals of either party. Its like watching the superbowl this year.. I don't like either team and think the game will be boring, but I'll watch and pick a side. Most people do the same with Republicans or Democrats.

[adios]

[thomastem]

Very good points Cracker I think most if not all Americans and critters agree that changes, some permanent, had to be made to stop it from happening again. If the Gov did nothing and we got hit again the same people would ask why the politicians did nothing.

But you just try to defend NY electing Hillary....I dare you.

[MMMMMM]

The Libertarian Platform is, IMO, better than the Democratic or Republican Platforms.

The only two areas where I disagree significantly disagree with them are on their foreign policy approach, which seems to ignore 9/11 and the implications of organized terrorists plotting against us, and on their open borders approach to immigration. Other than those two things, I think their ideas are far better and would do much good for the citizens of the USA.

[Redhot_man]

[ QUOTE ]
The Libertarian Platform is, IMO, better than the Democratic or Republican Platforms.

The only two areas where I disagree significantly disagree with them are on their foreign policy approach, which seems to ignore 9/11 and the implications of organized terrorists plotting against us, and on their open borders approach to immigration. Other than those two things, I think their ideas are far better and would do much good for the citizens of the USA.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, their foreign policy approach is sort of.."Well we should never have gotten so involved in foreign affairs and should become more isolationist - obviously, this is now imposible"...

[CrackerZack]

I voted for Lazio.

Btw, the whole senate thing is a load of crap. They had a residence here for around 6 months, quite a nice one I might add as I dated a girl who lived about a block away, but seriously, she's from arkansas, buys a house up here and can run for senate? Ridiculous. You would think after the Kennedy's did it in the 60's they'd reform that.

[Redhot_man]

[ QUOTE ]
Very good points Cracker I think most if not all Americans and critters agree that changes, some permanent, had to be made to stop it from happening again. If the Gov did nothing and we got hit again the same people would ask why the politicians did nothing.

But you just try to defend NY electing Hillary....I dare you.

[/ QUOTE ]

9/11 was a terrible tradegy for the American people. It was however, an unbelievably magical day for the American government. Just look at the results of 9/11. They conquered, I mean "liberated" Iraq, the country with the second largest oil reserves in the world. We now control this, amazing aint it?
At home, they gain absolutley absurd powers. George Bush literally pulled out his dick and pissed all over the Bill of Rights. And Although they may have not yet begun to obuse these powers, they will in time, you can count on it.

Let me ask you this, 10 years from now, will the American people have more or less freedom? And then in another ten years from then, more or less freedom?

[Terry]

http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/pics/humor/div/div_10474542800.jpg

[thomastem]

[Taxman]

The act obviously has many problems, though I too will admit that I am willing to sacrifice a few minor freedoms for greater safety. Nevertheless, I think it is a mistake to validate something based on what you or your friends are willing to put up with. Every aspect of something like the patriot act needs to be carefully and critically examined if it is to live on.

[Taxman]

[ QUOTE ]
Its like watching the superbowl this year.. I don't like either team and think the game will be boring, but I'll watch and pick a side

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a GREAT quote! Kudos.

[Philuva]

Why should abortions, school prayer school, tax rates, foreign policy be grouped into 2 platforms. It makes no sense.

Anyway, if people would start thinking outside of the two parties, they would realize there are candidates that meet their needs better.

I think the Libertarians would have a huge following from both Repbulicans and Democrats if they were given the opportunity. Anyway, I encourage people to vote outside the 2 party system. It gives better representation to other views. There are other teams besides these 2 playing, so you don't have to decide between these two.

[limon]

i allign closely with the libertarian party. i even have a full size gadsden (dont tread on me) flag up in my poker room. its amazing how many people immediately think i'm some sort of extremist, until i explain that the govt. has the right to come in and arrest us all for the $1-2 no-limit game we're enjoying as consenting adults...it's insane.

when i think about the laws in this country surrounding marriage to someone you love, smoking an herb, and playing some cards with your friends it just makes me sick...i will do all i can to change those rules within the system.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

As a former east-coaster, and someone who has been in the WTC on a tuesday afternoon (tho wasn't there when it got hit in 2001), I totally agree with your feelings here. That whole damn building made me nervous, as I was there after the first bombing. I felt like a big bullseye. My feelings were justified.

Tho I basically DESPIZE ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MOST GOVERNMENT, I AM willing to put up with certain things, even certain things that infringe on constitutional rights, in order to be safe. Screw the PC people who think racial profiling is a BAD idea. Screw those who would trade the nation's safety just so a few people don't have to put up with a little extra inconvenience now and then. I get singled out for EXTRA searches about 2/3 times I board a plane. So be it. Don't forget to check for bombs and box cutters while you're at it.

On the other side of the coin, I have NO doubt the a-holes in government and law enforcement will find some way to abuse this law too. That's standard procedure. The police syndicate IS after all, just state sanctioned organized crime.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
i allign closely with the libertarian party. i even have a full size gadsden (dont tread on me) flag up in my poker room. its amazing how many people immediately think i'm some sort of extremist, until i explain that the govt. has the right to come in and arrest us all for the $1-2 no-limit game we're enjoying as consenting adults...it's insane.

when i think about the laws in this country surrounding marriage to someone you love, smoking an herb, and playing some cards with your friends it just makes me sick...i will do all i can to change those rules within the system.


[/ QUOTE ]

Translation: Limon is a pothead friggin' liberal ass extremeist gambler bent on destruction of the universe!

Just kidding!

Nice sentiments Limon!

al

[limon]

...then you see my hunting rifles, find out I support incredibly tight border restrictions and think the income tax is unconstitutional...now I'm ultra-conservative!

fiscal conservative, social liberal...Go Arnold! anyone who can save me $300 on my car tax and openly participate in a gang-bang is OK in my book.

[thewarden]

As Ben Franklin said..."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[Wake up CALL]

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
fiscal conservative, social liberal...Go Arnold! anyone who can save me $300 on my car tax and openly participate in a gang-bang is OK in my book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh god, i am still laughing!

I like this one too... from "the simpsons"

[bart brings his dad the mail]

bart: OK dad that'll be $3 for on couch delivery

Homer: Ok, and three makes three

bart: hey! this isn't real money! it's printed by the montana militia!

homer: it'll be real soon enough!

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

but ben didn't have fully fueled airliners crashing into skyscrapers either.

al

[Victor]

This is a typical statement made by someone who simply does not know the facts and is easily manipulated out of fear. Prior to 9-11 gov spent 35billion on defense and intelligence. We have the CIA, FBI, Army and local law enforcement. THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. THEY DID KNOW. THEY F'ED UP. In the mid 80's Oliver North said that the most dangerous man to USA was Osama Bin Laden. No matter what laws are in place or how much money we spend, if the people responsible mess up then bad things will happen. Now we are supposed to give up more freedom and bundles of money to the same idiots who couldnt put two and two together in the first place.
The travesty of it all is that fools actually "feel safer" now. Well, how safe will you feel the next time theres a catastrophe? More importantly, how much more freedom will you be willing to give up then? You see, the terrorists have already won. They put us in a position to destroy liberty, and we are all too willing to let the government do just that.

[Victor]

the super bowl will be more interesting if you bet on it.

[thewarden]

No, you're right. Different times, so we should just give up personal liberties that thousands died for them before us and let ourselves be intimidated by whichever big, bad monster Bush thinks of this week.
Post-9/11 he's used fear to whip people into line. He had the intelligence beforehand to know that the threat was imminent, handed to him urgently by the previous administration and just took a vacation in Crawford.
I could go on and on, but it's apparent that the only goal of this administration is to remove and impediments to absolute, irrevocable power and the Patriot Act is a grand extension of that.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[Taxman]

Ironically, the Clinton administration was very concerned with Bin Laden and had a plan to go after him at the end of it's second term. Not having time to impliment this plan, they left their information fo the incoming president Bush, who summarily ignored all of it, dismissing the democrats as paranoid about arab terrorists.

[Jim Kuhn]

Taxman - do you have any links to news reports or information regarding the Clinton administration going after Bin Laden? I would like to read further.

I think the Republicans and Democrats need a big wake up call. They cater to PAC groups and big businesses. They give millions of dollars worth of tax cuts and then have billions of dollars worth of tax increases.

I will vote for the Libertarian's for every office that I can. I don't agree fully with all of their platforms but the two party system is not working for this country. Check out the link below for the Libertarian views on how to better our Government.

[MzLisa]

Hi all,

i will admitt that i am not up on top of all the political issues, but the fact of the matter is that employment is still down. There are many people that dont have money or have a job that hardly pays thier bills every month. These to me are the true sufferers of the Bush administration.

Yes 911 is important and by all means we need to protect ourselves to insure that it doesnt happen again. But Bush has taken it to a new level by putting this war against Iraq above the american people's needs. These people need jobs, they need to make a sustainable living and not have what they pay in taxes go off to fight a war that is really a non-issue.

Bush was the govenor of a state that had the highest illiteracy rate and the highest capital punishment rate in the entire USA. It seems only fitting for his personality to put the cost of Killing a bunch of iraqies over the finacial being of this contry. There were no weapons of mass destruction there and honestly they had no business messing with those people.

Sadaam has been a very bad man for a very long time. Im glad that he is no longer in power, but honestly we cannot afford to take out all of the bad tirants of the earth. I wish we could but this country can not. So what was this war against him for. After all, he didnt blow up the twin towers, Osama did.

The point im trying to make is that Bush has his priorities mixed up. Yes, we should secure the airports and secure all federal buildings and the such. But to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on a war with Iraq is just plain stupid.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Ironically, the Clinton administration was very concerned with Bin Laden and had a plan to go after him at the end of it's second term. Not having time to impliment this plan, they left their information fo the incoming president Bush, who summarily ignored all of it, dismissing the democrats as paranoid about arab terrorists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clinton had 8 frigging years!!! Seems like plenty of time to me. I suppose his saxaphone lessons took more of his time than I knew. Admit it, Clinton did not do jack in the way of eliminating Bin Laden while he was still out in the open. Now you bash Bush, either become better informed or do some research.

[Taxman]

Here's three links that didn't take too long to find:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,769398,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/08/05/walq05.xml

http://www.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/globe_stories/0915/A_US_plan_eyes_commando_raid_on_bin_Laden+.shtml

I could probably produce more if you want. I realize these aren't outright condemnations of the Bush administration's decisions, but regardless, they do indicate that Bin Laden was presented as a current threat. Also, as to be expected on an issue as sensitive as this, there are a few different viewpoints. One thing that is consitent is that there were concerns about Bin Laden during the Clinton administration and there were plans to get him. Even if Clinton held off for one reason or another (and before the extreme conservatives out there cry foul, it's very very likely that he would have been butchered for any action he did take by the republican propaganda machine), he did pass information onto the current administration that was largely ignored until after September 11. As one of the reports says, there was an article in Time magazine and I know there must be a few other sources floating around out there.

I agree that both of the major parties suck. I don't necissarily agree that Libertarianism is the answer, but I salute your ability to think outside of the political box.

[Taxman]

[ QUOTE ]
either become better informed or do some research.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. I won't even bother telling you why this statement is mind numbingly hypocritical. Read my post below. You know absolutely nothing about how long or how much the Clinton administration knew about Bin Laden. At least he was proactive about the information he did gain. Ironically one of the things keeping him from acting immediately was a justified fear that the Republicans would mercilessly attack him for trying to garner support for Gore with a flashy anti terrorist campaign. At least he still developed a plan and presented it to the incoming administration, which subsequently tied it up in red tape.

[Stagemusic]

This is a great statement but only useful if you quote or at least notate your sources for it. I for one would be interested in seeing some VERIFIED sources for your statement...Please don't include Uncle Mike down at Paddy's Bar, Grill, and Horseshoe Emporium. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Stagemusic]

From your own sources

[ QUOTE ]
The plan was drawn up during the Clinton administration and was nearly carried out more than a year ago.


But senior aides to President Clinton decided against it for two reasons. Not only did the aides have doubts about the exact location of bin Laden, but concerns were also expressed about the potential negative impact on Israeli-Palestinian peace talks last year, said two Clinton administration officials, speaking on condition of anonymity.



[/ QUOTE ]

Oooooops...Political considerations getting in the way of what was right??? Not our Uncle Bill!

[ QUOTE ]
political considerations also intruded. Mr Clinton was already considered notorious for linking national security to domestic politics, notably after he launched a failed cruise missile attack against al-Qa'eda targets in Afghanistan and the Yemen at the height of the Monica Lewinsky scandal.


[/ QUOTE ]

The bob and weave??? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Too easy...and you can just keep anything from the Guardian to yourself. Not a respected source by any stretch of the imagination.

[Taxman]

Both of your quotes were mere statements of general public opinion and had nothing to do with his actual motives, which we can argue about forever. The one theing Republicans are darn good at is political attacks. Take the Al Gore internet thing which was one of the most rediculous drawn out dramas about a quote taken out of context. You ignore my essential point as well. The fact is that there was a concern and there was a plan. Maybe it would have been best if Clinton had followed through on it, but I have no doubt in my mind that it would have be construed as political opportunism given the timing of it. Like I said before, at least he was somewhat proactive. With this info and a good plan staring them in the face, the Bush administration decided to wait until thousands of people were killed before they did something. Selective reading and quoting out of context is not a good way to try and get your point across. Too easy? You might as well have been referring to your own comments.

[MMMMMM]

"Take the Al Gore internet thing which was one of the most rediculous drawn out dramas about a quote taken out of context."

You probably wouldn't be aware of this, but Al Gore(Inventor of the Internet) used to post here on occasion.

[Taxman]

uh, question already answered. Thanks for trying though. If that's not good enouge I'm sure many other sources have reported on this. If you are too lazy, I might be convinced to do even more research for you, but I think CNN and Time Magazine are good enough for now. I see you responded again to this post rather than the more relevant one below adressing you're supposed destruction of the evidence I provided. Way to put me in my place.