"Ace High Flush"

Tight UTG raises, 5 callers including the button, tight BB 3-bet, UTG 4-bets, everybody calls. 7 players 28sb.


Flop is AhKhQh. BB bets, UTG raises, 4 folds, button calls, BB 3-bets, UTG 4-bets, button calls, BB calls. 3 players 40sb 20bb.


Turn is 6c. BB checks, UTG bets, button calls, BB calls. 3 players 23BB.


River is 7h. BB checks, UTG bets, button bets, BB reluctantly and disgustedly calls, UTG reluctly calls.


Button tokes the dealer $1, announces "Ace high flush", and proudly turns over the red dueces. BB and UTG disgustedly fold after a reasonable pause.


What's everybody got, how do you rate their play, and which one was me.


- Louie

I'll guess UTG has AA, BB has KK(maybe QQ, more likely KK) and button who i think was you has the 2's. Raisers played there hand right for the most part. Only question might be the calls on river but the pot being so big i don't think its a big deal to call.


As for your play with 2's. Preflop is fine. On the flop i think your thinking is that both have sets, as the bb would not have 3 bet unless he had QQ's or better. And the fact that it got 4 bet by the UTG you gave him a big pair as well. The questionablre calls are the flop and turn. In this particular spot i think your thinking is correct. Obviously i don't like drawing at 2 high flush draws, but given the information you have with these 2 players and nobody else in the pot to worry about having a heart i like the calls. You know your gonna lose an out on the turn if its not a heart because that will be a heart that you cannot hit because if it paire the board you lose to a full.


Good bet on the river, if you have the confidence to go to the river for it based on your reads, you should have the confidence to bet it on the river. You know you'll get at least one call given the size of the pot!


How close am I?

If the button could read hands well enough to know these two had AA and KK (or QQ or AK), then he should have folded pre-flop rather than call with 22.


However, when the hand is narrowed down to just the three of them, the calls on the flop and turn are great. And the river bet is spectacular for value and to create an image of a complete idiot-calling station. If I saw somebody turn over 2h2d, my first reaction would be to dismiss the player as a complete rube. It takes a few moments to think about the post-flop play to understand it.

The pot is PLENTY big enough to play 22 hoping to flop a set even if you see big pairs out against you. If you flop a set the AA will make a set only about one time in 6.5. The rest of the time you get to jam your small set against an over-pair which is good. Yes, the more big pairs you know about the worse it gets since set-under-set becomes more realistic.

K-K for bb, A-A for UTG, 2-2 for Louie. Nice playing by Louie, bet by UTG on the river not so good.

Hehe...nice hand and great play, Huey..I mean Dewey...I mean Louie /images/smile.gif

You should have posted this under "Medium Stakes" for maximum reponse. I also think that you should have posted it just the usual way...i.e., I have 2h2d, the action was yada yada yada...what's my play on the river and how do you like my play so far?....the responses would have been interesting to read.

After UTG raises and 4 players call, there are 5 small bets plus the blinds in the pot. Since the odds of flopping a set are 8.3 to 1, you don't seem to bet getting the propper odds to call the first bet since the only way to win with 2d2h is to flop the set (unless, of course, you sell your soul and win with a flush).

nt

But it seems that you are only looking at pot odds and not considering implied odds.


If Louie knew that it was going to be capped preflop, calling with 22 is questionable. But usually, when someone raises and 4 guys call, you can anticipate at least 6 opponents each taking the flop for 2 bets. In those circumstances, you clearly have the implied odds and what's more, you should hope like hell that the raiser has AA/KK instead of AK/AQ.


As it was, the preflop betting got capped. Louie is already in for 2 bets. At that point, calling is better than folding given the "hit or fold" type of hand that Louie has. Of course, as it turned out, he had a good draw!

No...after the flop...he wins a good number of times. Specifically, he has 9 outs on the turn (subject to a redraw) and 8 outs on the river. 5 out of 43 times, he will have to fold on the turn (when the board pairs). He clearly has the odds to continue postflop given that he knew that he was not drawing dead to a flush.

I considered implied odds as well. But it seems reasonable you're up against some other pocket pairs as well including the other callers. If the flop comes A92 or K72 (no flush scenario), are you going to continue to the river? Somebody in between UTG and you is likely to have a pocket pair as well (9s? 6s?). With 22, you could find yourself paying off a bigger set.


Perhaps it's too tight of an approach (I doubt it), but I always fold 22 for a pre-flop raise. And if the raise comes from a tight player in early position, it's a no-brainer.


If you'll call a pre-flop raise with 22, why not call with 53s, 98o or some other weak holding and say the reason you called is "implied odds". It seems "implied odds" can be replaced here with "wishful thinking". After all, if you've got 98o, you can hope the board will end up 9 8 2 3 Q.


I always fold 22 when there is a pre-flop raise. ALWAYS. And I'm right.

Dynasty,


Always folding 22 to any preflop raise is definitely wrong. Where the fulcrum stands is an interesting and difficult questions, but that there are times when it is correct to call is beyond dispute IMO. "And I'm right."


-Dan

If the flop comes K72, I am definitely going to the river and probably not just for single bets on each betting round. Of course, if there continues to be heavy action postflop, then consideration will have to be given to the set over set possibility. That would maen that I would slow down - it would not mean that I ought to fold.


The difference between 22 and 53s and 98 and the like is that with 22, I can release on the flop and generally avoid reverse implied odds while with 53s and the like, that's not necessarily the case. You simply will not hit the flop hard enough often enough to make calling profitable. Also, it is easier to be outdrawn even when you hit with 53s.


As for always folding with 22, well, if a tight UTG raises and no one calls, you should alwys fold (unless you are in the bb). But when 4 guys coldcall, well...that's a different story.


Of course, I could be wrong. The above is just my view...of course.

I get it. Since the BB is tight and 3 bets, you know he QQ or better. UTG caps, so he's >=QQ too


The important part isn't just the 3 hearts on the flop. It's the AKQ. You know that your heart draw is good. Cute.

The pre-flop raiser could flash me 83o and I'd still fold. Even in that situation, I've only got a 50/50 chance to beat him. And my odds go way down with multiple callers in between the raiser and myself.


Too many players get too attached to their small pocket pairs and won't release them pre-flop.


You should play 22 in late position for the bring-in only or you shouldn't play it.

Malmuth once said and I agree that you need effectively 10:1 to play a small pair for its set value. That means that when you flop a set you will need the opponents to invest 10 bets during the hand for every 1 you invest calling pre-flop. 10:1 is more than the set flop odds of 7.5:1 to cover the times you make it and lose.


So with 22 and a raiser and 4 callers and presumably a call by the BB, I'm getting 6:1 right now. Surely I can get these 6 players to invest 4 more BB during the hand when I flop a 2. Yes I'd say I'm going to get more than 8bb from them.


Once I make the first call the 2nd call is a no-brainer since I'm already getting 13:1 for that call.


Its EXTREMELY unlikely BB and UTG have a J and therefore my "flush" draw was good. It would be MUCH more difficult had there been a cold-caller. This is just basic hand reading and is not "cute". It looks real strange and makes me look like an idiot, but that's their problem not mine.


And that's the point. Hand reading can be VERY profitable at times. All I did was put this basic hand reading into action instead of knee jerk reaction folding the stiff 2. Try programming this play into a poker playing program.


- Louie


"Cute", BTW, was announcing "Ace high flush" (something I don't do anymore).

Louie, I didn't mean that your play was cute. I meant the situation was cute. It's not often you can put someone /off/ a certain suit based on his preflop play, and it's kind of neat that such a situation came up.


The initial read - putting your opponents on a pocket pair - is easy. The difficult part is in noticing that a 2 high flush draw will be good. We can argue about whether or not this is difficult. You say it's basic hand reading, but for me it's a matter of perception clicking on, and noticing the full implications of this read. The play is clear as day, but only once you see it. That's a distinction we usually don't get to make in poker.


For instance, in chess suppose you have 2 different potential moves, and you agonize over which is best. We could say that your play is difficult. Then suppose someone comes along and suggests a third play. You look at it, and it's clearly better than the 2 you are agonizing over. We could say that this play is easy, because it's easy to evaluate. However, it turned out that finding the play was difficult. I think it's the same thing with your play in this hand. Your call for the flush draw is easy to understand, but only if you see it's there.


This is a good lesson. Everyone should train himself to look for these opportunities.

Its not easy to see for people who mindlessly apply old-wives' tales ..err.. old-weak-tight tales ..err.. generalities to every situation. In this case instead of thinking in terms of your apparent hopeless flush draw you just need to think about which hand the opponent can have to make your draw hopeless. That would be easy if someone else had called the double bet or if the flop was AJT.


Ever bet a weak hand and get raised and forget to notice that there are no lagitimate hands with which the opponent can raise? Here;s one: 2 players call and I check 64 in the BB. Flop is QT6 all 3 check. Turn is 3 and I bet and get raised by the button... Knee jerk reaction is that I should fold, but besides the unlikely trip 3s (and perhaps the even less likely trip 6s) there just aren't any lagitimate hands with which he'd raise now but NOT bet the flop or raise B4 the flop. I therefore (correctly) concluded he correctly figured me for a weak bet so I paid him off.


So ask yourself "Which specific hands can the opponent reasonable actually have?" before you make a laydown.


The reverse is also true: before you bluff be able to visualize an actual hand that you can reasonably represent.


- Louie

I see your logic for staying with 22, but is too far of a reach for me. I've seen people play too many bad hands; JTs, AKo, KQo for capped bets to feel comfortable that everyone else had a set and no flush draw.


I fold 22 unless I can attack the blinds by open/raising. Too many times this holding gets beaten on the turn or river.


Napa Scott

Looking at it spelled out I agree with your reasoning. Cool play! No way I could do the same.


What happened the following hands? Did the whole table (incorrectly) see you as a fish? Were you able to reap any benefits from this (probable) change in table image?

"Fish" isn't a very good table image but "lucky !@#$%* fish" sure is. I was able to represent any hand I wanted and could capitalize on their subconsious presumption that I was going to win. And they didn't disappoint themselves.


Notice the "Ace high flush" comment adds to the "idiot" image, although it also (and regrettably) rubs salt in the wound.


"No way I could do the same." Why not? The "rules" and "platitudes" and "generalities" of poker (such as don't draw to a stiff 3rd nut flush) are useful because the apply to a wide variety of situations, but that doesn't mean the apply to ALL situations.


- Louie

I can see the reasoning behind your play only after analyzing it slowly and thoroughly here. I would never have even thought about the different possibilities and would have mucked the hand early on. What's depressing is that this only illustrates how little I know and what a long ways more I have to go to become a decent poker player. Been at it for about 10 months, and still trying to dig myself out of a hole!


Papio