4/8 Hand: Semi-Bluff & Toal Bluff

I was playing 4/8 Hold'em at the Monte Carlo in Las Vegas today and tried to win a big pot with a semi-bluff on the flop and turn and a total bluff on the river. My table image is respectably tight with those who are paying attention.


The pot starts getting big immediately because we've got a live straddle to the right of the big blind. An MP calls and the player to my immediate right raises. I've got respect for this player's raises but he has raised pre-flop and then check/folded on the flop more than once when he missed.


I've got JhTh. I think about re-raising to put as much pressure on the blinds and straddler to fold but know that if I'm re-raised, I'm way behind. I decide to call.


The button, big blind, straddler, and MP all call as well. 6 players see the flop and there are 6 big bets in the pot (without calculating the rake)


The flop is Qh 8c 4d


I've got a gut-shot straight draw and a back-door flush draw (Royal Flush!)


4 players check the flop to me, including the pre-flop raiser. I had already decided to call any bets with this large pot so when it gets checked to me, I bet myself. If the button has a Queen, I'm sure he'll raise and I'll know where I stand with him. It's hard to believe anybody else checked top pair.


The button calls, the BB folds, the straddler, MP, and player to my right all call as well. The pot has 8 1/2 big bets.


The turn is Qh 8c 4d Qc


When I see the Qc, I've got a tough call if anybody bets into me but maybe I can try to steal the pot after representing Queens on the flop and I still have a few outs if nobody else has a Queen.


It's checked to me and I bet. The button folds, the straddler calls, the MP folds, and the player to my right folds. I'm heads-up against the straddler. The pot has 10 1/2 big bets.


The river is Qh 8c 4d Qc 6h


The straddler checks and I've decided that I've got no hope of winning in a showdown so I bet. The straddler reluctantly calls. I turned over my JhTh and say "I've got nothing". The straddler turns over an 8 (I didn't see the other card. I was a bit dissapointed he called) and he wins the pot with Qs & 8s.


So, were any of my bets correct or was I way out of line to be pushing this hard? The flop bet seemed right since I had position and could possibly get a free card if I chose to take it. The turn bet seemed like a great opportunity to steal a pot which my cards couldn't win. The river bet was pure desperation in a hope that my last remaining opponent was on either a straight draw or club-flush draw.

It doesn't sound like you have that much respect for the guy on your right when you call 3 bets cold after he raises MP'S call of the straddle. As for re-raising, the straddler isn't going anywhere - he had already put 2 bets in without even seeing his cards. It sounds like you're in the cutoff so a re-raise may get you the button. If you get re-raised you can fold depending on who does the re-raising. You have a tenuous holding. I, most likely, would have folded without putting any money in the pot.


Your flop bet was a good semi-bluff. And your read of the button sounds resasonable. When a Q comes on the turn I think a bluff is in order after your flop bet - even though you have a lot of opponents (they all need to fold). Trying to bet the straddler out may have been a mistake - straddlers = gamblers. He's there to gamble - he's not going to fold if he has anything, he may not even fold if he has nothing. And you might even win in a showdown - after all he is the straddler which means he has a random holding.


But it didn't end up that way.


Better luck next time.


As a side note: If you had checked the river, you wouldn't have had to show your cards. This would have preserved your "respectably tight" image.

Dynasty,


"My table image is respectably tight with those who are paying attention."


Straddler's don't pay attention for the most part and 4/8 players don't drop. You mite be able to bluff out a normal player but not a straddler who caught middle pair on the flop. You mite use this hand to exploit the players who are watching by tightening up again.


"The straddler turns over an 8 (I didn't see the other card. I was a bit dissapointed he called) and he wins the pot with Qs & 8s."


These are the hands straddler's usually have. Maniac's also have alot of these hands.


I think you played it well but got unlucky. Unfortunately you usually have to have the best hand to win at 4/8. I like your bet on the river. It may have changed your image but that could be a good thing.


Paul

I think you should fold preflop with jack-ten suited rather than call three bets cold. Agreed that the straddler could have anything and a reraiser may have just a decent hand and be trying to isolate the straddler and the caller. The problem is that you have a speculative drawing hand that requires a cheap entry fee to take a flop in order to be profitable. It may even get raised again. Regardless of what your opponents may or may not have, your hand is simply not worth paying three bets to take a flop.


I don't like your flop bet at all. Despite the checking, I think having five opponents is too many to be betting just a gutshot. I think you should check and be happy to take a free card. A bet is unlikely to win the pot with this large a field and a pot this big. You could easily get raised and find yourself paying multiple bets to take a card off.


On the turn, given that no one raised your flop bet, you might as well follow through with a bet since you can represent trips and might win the pot outright.


At the river, as you state, since you cannot survive a showdown you might as well bet having only one opponent.

10-Js is not a hand I would pay 3 bets to see the flop, especially without the betting being closed. Straddlers have a tendency to re-raise, and you may be looking at 3 more bets to see the flop.


A major component of the semi bluff is you must have a chance to win the pot right then. Against 6 opponents this isn't going to happen. Still the bet could buy you a cheap card to see the river so the bet's not terrible.


When the turn pairs the Q, you have a choice. The advantage to betting is the pot is big and you'd hate to lose it to someone who would've folded. The disadvantage is you got 4 callers, and the Q on the turn will actually ensure that 2nd pair will now call you down. It's close either way, but betting the flop may have committed you to betting thru.


Fold this pre-flop and you save yourself tough decisions down the road.

i like your raise when u could not win, but i feel u were been slow played throughout. I often find these hands are difficult because u r behind and u know it.


i would have played it different but u were playing from the gut...... still i dont think u should have played in the 1st place.


the best advice i can ever pass is to not ever to try to draw to a straight.


these hands are the BIGGEST bankroll killers of all time.


All the Best

Droopy

Jim's advice here is right on.

To be precise, I only called two small bets on the flop. The bring-in is $2, the straddler made it $4, and the raiser made it a total of $8. Still, calling 2SB pre-flop with JTs can be debated.


The flop bet is the one I like the most. I wasn't trying to win the pot there. I was attempting to be checked to on the turn so I could take my "free" card on the expensive street. If a blank had come on the turn, that's exactly what I would have done. Unfortunately, another Queen came and I decided to get creative with my weak drawing hand.

I agree completely with Jim. You shouldn't be coming in before the flop this hand, and you should be glad to take a free card on the flop. You're hand just isn't strong on the flop. You say you bet hoping for a free card on the turn. With a guy behind you it's harder to get that free card. And you absolutely do not want the guy behind you raising your bet on the flop because that will drive out all the players that will add value to your hand if you hit. I would check then call if I was closing the betting.


Of course you had to represent the queen again on the turn and you have to bet the river.