That Clarkmeister has some good ideas

[Ulysses]

A month or two ago Clarkmeister repeated something in a post that he's said before about betting when out of position and the fourth flush card (and you don't have any of those) hits on the river.

Since then I've been doing that a lot more. And every now and again someone who probably has a better hand than mine folds. That's always cool. But the part that has me really surprised is how often I'm getting called down by worse hands that would have almost certainly checked behind.

If you haven't taken this piece of advice to heart, you should.

Thanks, Clark!

[Diplomat]

Which piece?

-Diplomat

[Bill Murphy]

Like to be dead as a fvcking dvck in the loose passive 10 & 15 games I play doing that, but in Clark's tight Mirage games I'm sure its a strong play.

[Clarkmeister]

heh, every now and then I get lucky and actually stumble on something that works.

When you in town next? I had thought you were going to be in when mike l was here.....

[Ulysses]

I typically play in very loose, but pretty aggressive games. In those games when I have AK and my opponent has AT on an Ace-high flop, I tend to always get called at the end by the opponent who needs to make sure I don't have QQ of the wrong suits.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
When you in town next? I had thought you were going to be in when mike l was here.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was planning a January trip, but snowboarding has sort of gotten in the way of poker a couple of weekends. So annoying when real life intrudes on poker, isn't it?

[ZeroGee]

Wow, that's fairly interesting.

I was about to log on and post about two great pieces of advice I've recently read on 2+2 that have really helped my 15-30 and 20-40 game, and you have a form of one of them already.

The first was when Ulysses mentioned, "When I'm done with a hand, I'm done with it, regardless of what happens on later streets." Just because people start checking doesn't mean you should take a stab at the pot, because you usually get called.

But I love being out of position, check-calling the flop, check-calling the turn, and betting out on the river if you plan on seeing a showdown. It's amazing how many times people call that would have checked their crappy hand behind you on the river, and you can even probably get a mediocre-hand-that-is-still-better-than-yours to fold. In addition, they will almost NEVER raise fearing you hit a straight, higher two pair, etc., unless they truly have a monster, and then you can safely fold. I tried this play out a few times tonight and it worked beautifully, where I got called down by weak hands and won an extra bet. This will certainly add up in the long run.

[andyfox]

I have absolutely the highest and utmost respect for Clarkmeister's game, and for yours, but how often do you end up out of position on the river without a trump card with a four-flush on board?

[Franchise (TTT)]

[ QUOTE ]
I have absolutely the highest and utmost respect for Clarkmeister's game, and for yours, but how often do you end up out of position on the river without a trump card with a four-flush on board?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about them, but I do quite often. Most of the time it happens when I have TPTK, top two, or a set. Or maybe I'll flop a straight.

[Clarkmeister]

He's talking about when the 4th one hits on the river, not a 4 flush on the turn.

[shemp]

playing 1500+ hands a day online all sorts of rare things become unrare. AA v KK, set over set seems almost daily. Flopped flush over flush more than weekly. etc.

I gave this same advice here well more than a year ago, and exactly for the kooky calls simultaneous with the best hand folding. a) Clark, no doubt, discovered it on his own and b) I, know doubt, heard it from someone else...

How's this for a rare event: As I was reading the first post in this thread, I folded a set on a 4-flush board rather than be the second over call. I folded the best hand. What are the odds? No kidding. What are the odds I'm not throwing up right now?

[andyfox]

Yeah, I know. You still shouldn't find yourself in that position too often.

But I'll start betting when I do, and keep you posted.

Regards,
Andy

[Ulysses]

Online, where I play 3 shorthanded tables at the same time and see about 200 hands per hour, everything seems to happen, oh, about 6 times as frequently...

So, some non-trivial amount of times I find myself w/ something like red AK and the flop is Axx all black. Some action on the flop and we see the turn, another spade, heads-up. I bet, he calls. River is yet another spade. Here's where I've been betting more and the most common result is something along the lines of he calls and my red AK beats his red AQ. Of course, this is online, so he'll sometimes show me 8h2s for middle pair on the flop and backdoor bottom flush.

[andyfox]

Fair enough.

I'll post my own results when such situations come up.

Thanks to you both.

[J_V]

I'm sure he's not the only one who plans his Vegas trips around the human canon Mike L's arrival. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[LarsVegas]

...liberally betting the river out-of-position in pots where you come into the river with the initiative is a good strategy. Sklansky's "55% chance of being ahead when called" rule for a value bet does not apply in situations like this, when frequently, most worse hands will check behind, but almost all better hands will bet. You could need as little as 10-15% chance of being ahead when called and still be correct to find a bet.

By checking to big scare cards, you also put yourself to a decision if your opponents now bets. But usually because of the size of the pot and the fact that you have shown weakness through checking, you have to invest one more big bet in the pot anyway and call. On the other hand, you will almost NEVER be bluff raised in situations like these, only by level 4 or so players, such as in the "mike l. vs Clarkmeister" hand. However, if some opponent do start to either bluffraise and/or thin-valueraise you on your continued river bets despite obvious scare cards, take notice. Usually this won't be the case.

I am checking the river after coming into the street with the initiative less and less. In fact, I am more prone to check to blank rivers in certain situations, where I might decide to induce a bluff for variation or don't like the prospect of being raised (as I said, it's almost NEVER bluff when the most scary cards fall and I continue to bet, it's harder to fold when a blank falls on the river and I am raised).

lars