Abe
01-21-2004, 02:40 PM
Maybe I stayed in Tunica too long and was getting deranged. These all came up last week. See what you think of the following situations and actions.
#1 The Drunk Kid -- Two young (22 ish) guys come to the table and both buy in for $200. One of them sits next to me and he does not know what to do in the game. Does not understand the holdem mechanics, procedures etc. I tried to explain about the blinds, structure, protect your hand, etc. His buddy yells out that he has never played holdem or in a casino before. I keep talking with him and he is a nice guy, but it quickly becomes apparent that he is way drunk. His buddy walks away from the table for a minute and I intercept him and tell him the the guy next to me is too drunk and he should pull him from the game. He says "Nah, we play cards and drink all the time." The game is now pretty good. These two are playing most hands. The other good player in the game is now very alert to the situation.
I rack my chips and leave.
#2 The Cheaters -- Two Asian guys come to the table in succession as the list is called. One sits in the 9 seat and the other eventually moves to the 10 seat. They "passively collude". The 10 seat puts his left elbow on table and hand on his cheek - blocking mouth from dealer. Partner in 9 seat does the reverse with his right - blocking sight/sound from the 8 seat. They now whisper in foreign language what each other has. It is done very discreetly and infrequently. Usually only when both are in a hand. They do not raise and reraise each other to build a pot, just play the best hand and check for help cards etc. I am in the 7 seat and have perfect line of sight to what is happening. Asian lady in seat 8 tells me what language they are speaking and tells them that she understands what they are saying. I watch 3 specific examples of them doing it. They do not do it more than once on any dealer "down" and there are so many new dealers in the room. Room is also very noisy with all the crowd surge from the tourney.
The game is not good now and I can easily leave. No one I know is in the game. I was never involved in a hand with the two guys. Seems like there are many choices on what to do here.
I racked my chips and left the game. Then reported the specific situation and actions to the shift manager.
#3 The Rich Guy -- A guy comes in to a 10-20 game with a rack full of green and black chips and a beer. Over $2000 by my quick count. No red chips at all. Understands nothing about the game. "Saw it on TV - how much can I bet?" This is not a college kid or young aggressive newby. This guy is in his '40s and wearing a $100 shirt and a $1000 watch. "Where are the antes?" "$40 is all I can bet?" He is drinking a little but not drunk. He is on auto-bet, auto-raise for a while and then slows down a little. He will fold about 10% preflop. If checked to him he bets about 75% of the time. If bet to him, he calls about 50% and raises 50%. If you raise him, he will ALWAYS raise you back. He is completely raise insensitive and does not consider actions on previous betting rounds.
This guy causes BIG swings in the game. Turns over incredible hands - good and bad. He is way up for a while. Busts out a couple of greedy locals who get into the game with their weekly $200. Sends them home broke. Some others at the table are having a nice win. A few of the regulars are grumbling about how he is slowing up the game and is a bad player. I whisper to them to just be nice, don't say anything to upset him. Another player says the same to the "grumpys" at the other end of the table.
Ethical Dilemma for me? Nope. All my money comes out and I am not leaving this game. The guy eventually leaves the table a big loser and the game breaks.
#4 The Nice Old Guy -- Played twice with a nice old man. He went thru 2 racks at 10-20 Saturday and then came back the next day. I was about to leave the game when he sat down. An absolute calling station and sitting on my right. Kept pulling out hundreds and buying chips. I was really nice and friendly with him. Kept reminding him how he had beat me with his Aces the night before. (My KK vs his Ax with a A on river --grrrr) The guy keeps flashing his cards to me and I would only look when I was out of a hand. He was playing almost anything. Any big card, any suited and any two cards close to each other. Any time he pairs, he is in to the river. Raise insensitive, but would not often cold call 2 bets. Not aggressive himself, but sometimes would bet with nothing. He tells me, "I used to be good at this game, but can't win on this trip." I remind him again how he beat me with those Aces last night.
I stay in the game till he leaves. Only ethical regret is that I was trying to be so nice to him so he would stay.
So ---- I would appreciate hearing some of your thoughts on these situations. And remember; the ethics of this game are changing. What was fully acceptable to the old timers will NOT be acceptable as this game goes mainstream and into peoples living rooms. I think some of the normal practices of 20 years ago may be considered outright cheating in 5 years.
#1 The Drunk Kid -- Two young (22 ish) guys come to the table and both buy in for $200. One of them sits next to me and he does not know what to do in the game. Does not understand the holdem mechanics, procedures etc. I tried to explain about the blinds, structure, protect your hand, etc. His buddy yells out that he has never played holdem or in a casino before. I keep talking with him and he is a nice guy, but it quickly becomes apparent that he is way drunk. His buddy walks away from the table for a minute and I intercept him and tell him the the guy next to me is too drunk and he should pull him from the game. He says "Nah, we play cards and drink all the time." The game is now pretty good. These two are playing most hands. The other good player in the game is now very alert to the situation.
I rack my chips and leave.
#2 The Cheaters -- Two Asian guys come to the table in succession as the list is called. One sits in the 9 seat and the other eventually moves to the 10 seat. They "passively collude". The 10 seat puts his left elbow on table and hand on his cheek - blocking mouth from dealer. Partner in 9 seat does the reverse with his right - blocking sight/sound from the 8 seat. They now whisper in foreign language what each other has. It is done very discreetly and infrequently. Usually only when both are in a hand. They do not raise and reraise each other to build a pot, just play the best hand and check for help cards etc. I am in the 7 seat and have perfect line of sight to what is happening. Asian lady in seat 8 tells me what language they are speaking and tells them that she understands what they are saying. I watch 3 specific examples of them doing it. They do not do it more than once on any dealer "down" and there are so many new dealers in the room. Room is also very noisy with all the crowd surge from the tourney.
The game is not good now and I can easily leave. No one I know is in the game. I was never involved in a hand with the two guys. Seems like there are many choices on what to do here.
I racked my chips and left the game. Then reported the specific situation and actions to the shift manager.
#3 The Rich Guy -- A guy comes in to a 10-20 game with a rack full of green and black chips and a beer. Over $2000 by my quick count. No red chips at all. Understands nothing about the game. "Saw it on TV - how much can I bet?" This is not a college kid or young aggressive newby. This guy is in his '40s and wearing a $100 shirt and a $1000 watch. "Where are the antes?" "$40 is all I can bet?" He is drinking a little but not drunk. He is on auto-bet, auto-raise for a while and then slows down a little. He will fold about 10% preflop. If checked to him he bets about 75% of the time. If bet to him, he calls about 50% and raises 50%. If you raise him, he will ALWAYS raise you back. He is completely raise insensitive and does not consider actions on previous betting rounds.
This guy causes BIG swings in the game. Turns over incredible hands - good and bad. He is way up for a while. Busts out a couple of greedy locals who get into the game with their weekly $200. Sends them home broke. Some others at the table are having a nice win. A few of the regulars are grumbling about how he is slowing up the game and is a bad player. I whisper to them to just be nice, don't say anything to upset him. Another player says the same to the "grumpys" at the other end of the table.
Ethical Dilemma for me? Nope. All my money comes out and I am not leaving this game. The guy eventually leaves the table a big loser and the game breaks.
#4 The Nice Old Guy -- Played twice with a nice old man. He went thru 2 racks at 10-20 Saturday and then came back the next day. I was about to leave the game when he sat down. An absolute calling station and sitting on my right. Kept pulling out hundreds and buying chips. I was really nice and friendly with him. Kept reminding him how he had beat me with his Aces the night before. (My KK vs his Ax with a A on river --grrrr) The guy keeps flashing his cards to me and I would only look when I was out of a hand. He was playing almost anything. Any big card, any suited and any two cards close to each other. Any time he pairs, he is in to the river. Raise insensitive, but would not often cold call 2 bets. Not aggressive himself, but sometimes would bet with nothing. He tells me, "I used to be good at this game, but can't win on this trip." I remind him again how he beat me with those Aces last night.
I stay in the game till he leaves. Only ethical regret is that I was trying to be so nice to him so he would stay.
So ---- I would appreciate hearing some of your thoughts on these situations. And remember; the ethics of this game are changing. What was fully acceptable to the old timers will NOT be acceptable as this game goes mainstream and into peoples living rooms. I think some of the normal practices of 20 years ago may be considered outright cheating in 5 years.