Overcards

[chezlaw]

Paradise 5 player 5/10. I was given some verbals after this hand so I'd though I post it and get some more. The SB has been fairly quiet until now, calls a bit too much and possibly folds a bit too much postflop.

Folded to me on the button and I raise with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB calls and BB folds.

Flop 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets and I raise. I'll often raise here with overcards but my overcards are a bit weak. If the SB has a pair it could easily have an ace kicker. Should I have just folded here?

SB re-raises. It's not looking hopeful but SB could still just have a pair and might have gone for a turn checkraise if he had 2 pair or better. I call getting 10:1

Turn 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets. I've picked up a gutshot straight draw so I have 4, 7 or 10 outs and I call. Does anyone raise?

River A /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks and I bet.

[naphand]

PF play looks fine. His bet on the flop could just be testing your hand, doesn't automatically mean he has a pair, and by raising you are trying to buy a free ride to the River to catch. With the 3-bet, you're in trouble, I think.

With the very real possibility of a kickered A making life expensive if you catch an A, and poor implied odds (he has probably put you on overcards) and checks if an A falls (if he is not holding an A) this looks -EV to me. I fold the 3-bet without some additional outs, better than run-run inside straight.

[ZeeJustin]

Folding to the 3 bet is borderline, but I personally would do it because no matter what card came on 4th street, I would feel like I was still behind, even if it was an ace. I suppose an 8 is probably good, but that's only 3 outs, and surely your opponent has another chance to outdraw you. I think the turn bet is a clear fold. You just run the risk of having too many tainted outs. BTW, I do like the raise on the flop, and would make it just about every time if I raised preflop.

[James282]

I wouldn't give you any verbal but I would write "not very good, over-aggressive" in my notes if I was the SB. It seems like a lot of reasonable players get unreasonable just because they have raised preflop. I would play this hand identical to the SB if any of that flop hit me or I had any smaller pair as well. I bet the flop, trying to tell you, Mr. Overcards, that I know you don't have a piece of this flop. You raise me like everybody does when they have overcards after they raised preflop, and I am raising you back saying "Cut it out dude, you do not have any piece of this flop." Now if you cap, I might give you credit for an overpair, but when you just call I know you have exactly A8-AK(or any overcards therein) unless you are ready to stop and go me on the turn. The turn brings another card I know you don't have. So I bet again. The river brings that damn ace, but I check-call in case you had a big king. For heaven's sake, don't raise the turn, call it and suck out just like you did /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-James

[James282]

You like the raise but would fold to a 3 bet? Please explain what this raise accomplishes if you are folding to a three-bet.
-James

[chezlaw]

I gather I didn't play it very well /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I hate folding to a reraise on the flop and I hate my call as well. I'm not overjoyed at folding the turn with up to 10 outs either.

So I'm left with folding to the flop bet or popping it again on the flop or turn. I think with such weak overcards (both the A and 8 might be trouble) that I'll probably fold to the SB's flop bet next time and get the hand over with.

"not very good, over-aggressive" oh well I'll keep trying /images/graemlins/blush.gif. How would you rate his call from the SB with 79o?

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
You like the raise but would fold to a 3 bet? Please explain what this raise accomplishes if you are folding to a three-bet.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

The raise is good because it establishes aggression, letting your opponent know you have a hand, and that he is the one who will be folding, not you. Calling is just a bad play that should never ever ever be done. Ok, maybe sometimes.

The 3 bet unfortunately shows a lot more strength than any draw / overcards he could have been representing with a single bet. Sure, it's possible you are still ahead, but far more unlikely, and now you know he's not likely to back down.

[James282]

I would rate his call as horrible, terrible, insanely bad. However, he could have had something like 78s here which would make him virtually freerolling against you, with even better implied odds if the 8 comes. Honestly, you didn't play it too badly - and I think the turn call is almost mandatory as long as you play it as a probable gutshot + overcard(the 8 makes a straight, and it might be clean, but you certainly can't raise it). I think the most important thing is that you don't make your routine play to raise overcards when they miss, because good players will notice. You can do this sometimes so that they can't put you directly on a big pair when you raise - but especially when one of your overcards helps to coordinate the board, folding might be much better than trying to draw. Folding to the three-bet isn't very good, though. Against players at this level, straightforward play with the very occasional mix-up gets the money. I am often victim to getting way too tricky myself - but save it for big pots, not for pots with 4 SBs when you are drawing to 6(or less) outs.
-James