4-8 with QTs in late position

I pick up QTs in late position. There was an early limp, two mid position limps, me, and the blinds (5 players, $20). Flop came 8 8 J rainbow and only one of my suit. Checked around (Should I have bet? I have one overcard and a gutshot, but I feel like I wouldn't gain much by betting.) The next card is a 9, completing the rainbow and ruining the backdoor flush draw. EP bets, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, I raise (I have to raise here... I can't fold and I can't cold call two bets... do you agree?) The blinds fold, EP cold calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls (3 players, $100). The river brings a 7. EP bets, MP2 raises. What would you do here?

I re-raised. My gut told me that I was losing to a house in early position and mid position had T9 or TJ (this one is hard to explain, because I'm not really sure what told me this. It was an instinctive feel from the players, I guess). I have the nut straight, and I really don't trust my gut enough to lay it down (I only have about 24 hours of table experience). I think that if I cold call, I'll get reraised by EP (especially after going 3 bets on the previous round... it shows weakness to a straight). The EP thinks a long time and decides to call. MP calls. EP wins with 89 (the 9 is the *only* thing that would get him paid off by me). MP mucks, so I don't know what he had.


What do you think? Too agressive? "Knowing" that I'm beat, but betting into him to try to make him make a mistake... it seems like a good bet for the size of the pot (essentially a pure bluff). If I get reraised, I'm certainly beat and I could probably lay down the straight (it would take real guts to cap the betting at 4 bets with less than a house). I have a "tight image" (to those who are paying attention) having been at the table for about an hour and having only shown down top two pair and a set (and I won a few pots without a showdown, but nothing big). If I cold call and am not reraised, then I lose a pot of $148. If I raise and am called down, I lose an extra $8. But if I he folds, then I win $156 (assuming that MP calls, which is expected since he has just one bet to call). So he needs to fold about 5% of the time for this to be profitable. Is this thinking too deeply for these stakes?

Preflop, your limp with queen-ten suited is fine. On the flop, you should not lead with a gutshot and an overcard into four opponents even if they have all checked to you. This is too large a field and the board is too highly coordinated with an open pair and all cards in the playing zone. You won't win the pot outright by betting and you could get raised forcing you to spend two bets to take off a card. Be happy to take a free card to your gutshot. The free card has great utility because you are the last to act. On the turn, I agree with your reraise because the only thing that beats you is a full house. However, at the river, after showing all that strength on the turn, you should not reraise but just call when it is bet and raised to you. You are probably beat and the reraise just costs you extra money. I think you lost too much money on this hand.

I'm not sure reraising the river was a mistake. You have to be pretty sure that you will not be 4 bet by anything but the nuts though. If you just would have coldcalled you can be pretty sure that the boat would make it 3 bets so It's the same cost but you gain 1 BB when you're ahead.


Please show me the errors of my thoughts... ;-)


Sincerly, Andreas

well, he is ~never~ going to lay down a house in 4/8, so he would fold *much* less than 5% of the time. anyway for 2 bets in a huge pot he'd hafta be insane to fold there.


if i was him i'd 4-bet you(i woulda 4-bet the turn, river raises arent so common in my game), it sure looks like you have a straight to me, unless you have exactly 9-9 and hit a 2 outer on the turn.


if EP had 4-bet the turn, would he have gotten more than 1 bet from you on the river?


i think maybe mp had 8-7, why would he slow down the turn, and then raise the river?

For a reraise to be correct you need to have an almost perfect read on both players. First, you have to know that MP doesn't have a boat. Second, you have to know that EP can lay down a boat on the river.


I've never found anybody at 4-8 who will lay down a full house on a board like this on the river.


A river bluff like this might work if the board was something like QQ44x and you had AA and thought that MP had KK or another pocket pair and EP had a 4. You might be able to get EP to lay it down to a 3-bet on the river.

Two problems with reraising on the river:


1) If someone has a boat they may make it four bets. You have at least cost yourself one extra bet by reraising when you are up against a boat and it could cost you two extra bets unless you are planning to make a big fold at the river with all that money at stake.


2) If your hand is good, you may win the same amount of money by just cold-calling and not driving the bettor out of the hand.


By cold-calling you minimize your loss when you are up against a boat and you do not cost yourself any money when your hand is good and the bettor stays in for one more bet.

In hindsight I was being result oriented. Since he managed to beat EP1 into submission.


Tricky river to play, I guess a crying coldcall is the way to go.


Thanks for showing me the error of my ways.


Sincerely, Andreas