QJs on the button Party 10-20 6-max

[Ulysses]

This is a repost from Small Stakes. There was some debate there over my play in this hand, so I figured I'd see what you guys have to say about it. I'm relatively new at this table and don't have much of a read on anyone.

Party 10/20 6-max.

1 limper to me on the button w/ JQs. I raise. Blinds and limper call.

Flop KsKh7c

Checked to me. I bet. Small blind and limper call.

Turn KsKh7cJc

Checked to me. I bet. Both call.

River KsKh7cJc5c

SB now bets. Limper folds. I think about it a second and call.

What do you think?

[Nate tha' Great]

I think you played it fine, Uly. There's one alternate play that I think would also be fine.

...I'm always a little bit suspicious after I represent a big hand preflop, watch a couple of big cards come on a board with no apparent draws, bet it out on the flop, and get a couple of callers. I've been check-raised in that spot too many times to recount.

So this might be the rare case where I'd feel justified checking it through on the turn precisely because my hand has improved. Your hand now has some showdown value, there (apparently) aren't too many free cards that could could hurt you, and there's no way that you would get a better hand to fold. So you'd check it through on the turn, call one bet on the river, and go ahead and make a value bet if its checked around to you again since most Party players aren't patient enough to wait until the river to c/raise.

[Diplomatdcm]

I am nto sure what it is worth but I might be inclned
to fold QJs preflop, simply because I find that it
sucks in almost every possible shorthanded sitution.
Anyone ekse agree?
Other than that i like every street.

[James282]

It looks standard. Depending on your opponent, the bet on the end could be him hoping you have missed overcards and valuebetting his 5, 7, or Jack..it could be a pure bluff, or he could have oddly played the trips. I know what happens since I read the post there, but there wasn't really anything you can do. You gotta call the river, but you can't raise it. NH.
-James

[ZeeJustin]

Betting this flop seems awful to me. You have 3 opponents at a party table. They're obviously not all gonna fold. There's no value bet to be made either.

[Ulysses]

I was 50/50 checking v. betting on that turn for precisely the reasons you state.

[MRBAA]

If you're playing weak tight opponents, I think this line of play has some merit. Against the more typical loose passive or loose aggressive opponents I play at lower limits, this hand is a routine limp, check fold the flop. With no limper in, I raise to try to steal. But most players are way to loose and many are too aggressive in these games. It becomes a self-weighting strategy. Sure you sometimes win with nothing, but when you pump it up with a hand that generally has little showdown value (as opposed to an ace high hand) against fields that like to call, you're stacking the deck against yourself. You can get paid just as well on your big hands without doing this. My general strategy against "typical" opponents who call too much is to simply try to get lots of money in with my strongest hands and the least possible with my weaker ones. The goal is to have them call me when I'm strong, and have less action when I'm not. I want two bets in preflop when I have KQ or better, not when I have QJ, especially since it's likely that at least the big blind will come in most games.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I want two bets in preflop when I have KQ or better, not when I have QJ, especially since it's likely that at least the big blind will come in most games.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I disagree. With QJs on the button against a loose limper and blinds that call too much (so, essentially, 2 or 3 near-random hands), I'm more than happy to put two bets in pre-flop. You're in very good shape against even a lot of reasonable hands that will call. And we all know that a lot of garbage will play here as well.

Just for kicks, off the top of your head what do you think the equities are for the following three hands pre-flop? Take a wild guess.

Qs Js
Ac Tc
8d 8h

[stripsqueez]

i cant imagine playing this hand differently - i would call the river

i would bet the turn and call a raise and the river - obviously a raise is not what i want to hear but against a usual opponent i am enough of a chance to be in front to justify calling them down - the primary upside to betting is all the worse hands that will call and thats a big upside in this school

i fancy 88 - without some parameters it seems a bit hard to judge which of the 3 hands is best - A10s is second

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[ZeeJustin]

Can someone please explain to me why you bet this flop since everyone seems to agree it's correct?

[MRBAA]

I'm guessing they work out pretty even, but here's the thing, the other two are MUCH more likely to win unimproved, and are likely easier to play. Both are preflop raises in this situation for me, that's how much more I like playing them short-handed. Here's my main point: much more of the value in the short handed games I play in comes from being called when you're winning than from bluffing out better hands. Against better players the ratio might be closer. Against weak tight players it might be skewed the other way. But if your opponents are loose calling stations, you're better off to just limp. These types of players give you the best of both worlds: they let you draw cheap and pay you off when you hit. The one thing they won't do much of is fold, so why bet or raise when you probably aren't winning?

[naphand]

I'm guessing they have the same equity as well. I figure that QJs makes up a lot of its equity by being called by overcards with Q and J high flops, and making straights enough times with an AK or T9 on the board, to hurt people calling TP or their kickers, plus the ocassional flush too. It's a hand that when it catches, is much more likely to get called (by more people) than a flop with A or K.

I agree with MRBAA about betting when you're winning (and with good draws) and also would probably check this flop. And this hand is a good example of what I was suggesting was a limping hand in the *loose games* thread, for this type of game with loose callers.

But good post Ulysses - it's nice to see a hand posted that is sufficiently marginal and game-dependent, that perhaps there really are options on how to play it (rather than one clear best play).

[goodguy_1]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=182433
pokenum -h qs js - ac tc - 8d 8h
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 485639 35.43 882505 64.38 2610 0.19 0.355
Ac Tc 463258 33.80 904886 66.01 2610 0.19 0.339
8d 8h 419247 30.59 948897 69.22 2610 0.19 0.306

[2000Flushes]

#1 he was a preflop raiser, its very believable he has either the K for trips or a big PP like AA or QQ so if noone even has a pair he could very well win right here making a better hand such as Ax fold

#2 if he isn't check-raised he very likely will be checked to and able to check the turn card if it's unfavorable and see a free river especially if he picks up a flush or str8 draw.

#3 info - if it's checked through on the flop and someone bets out on the turn it tells you almost nothing but if he bets here his opponents actions have more meaning.

[Ulysses]

I think you underestimate the value of position in shorthanded games. Given a range of cards w/ reasonably similar pre-flop equities, I'll take whichever one comes with the button.

[Ulysses]

Interesting numbers, huh?

After reading this thread, I started wondering how QJs would do faced w/ a limper and a blind who actually had legitimate hands. I tried out a bunch of combinations and QJs did fine in most situations.

I thought a pocket pair and a decent suited Ace would be a three-way situation that QJs wouldn't really like. I was surprised to see that QJs has the most equity in this matchup.

[Franchise (TTT)]

Excellent post. Keep em coming!

By the way, I'm surprised 88 even has that much equity with 4 overcards (and two flush draws) spread amongst its two opponents.

[goodguy_1]

I was surprised as well too...great hand to choose because it illustrates so many issues crucial to short play ie closely matched hands and the power of position all vying for dacheese.

I think anyone that plays short would do themselves as service to do these heads-up,3 or 4 handed sims for an hour a day..just playing around ..knowing it's limitations.I've spent tens of hours doing this for HU situations but not 3 or 4 handed sims.I obvioulsy am missing out here because I really didnt have a good intuitive feel for which of your 3 hands in the example was best..I suspected thu that the QJs was the winner but thats not good enough.

If we study not just HU but also 3 or 4 handed sims its ahuge help to our NL as well as Limt.I'm going to start to do more 3 handed sims on random boards..as a follow-thru.I love doing this stuff anyway..

[MRBAA]

Yes, position is important. But the poster who said "Ulysses is the preflop raiser so others will put him on a hand" is not adjusting to the nature of loose, short game players. They WON'T put you on a hand, your raise doesn't mean much to them. They like to call and will call one or two. Your flop bet on a paired board just doesn't impress them. They won't fold. They'll call. I think against these opponents, you get much more profit by pretty much abandoning bluffs and semi-bluffs and betting primarily to get called.

[daryn]

i have to disagree with this and think that QJs should be raised every time in this situation. a fold is bad i think

[naphand]

Why do you disagree? What is the reasoning behind what you say? Just interested to know.

[daryn]

oops my bad, i replied to the wrong guy.. i actually was trying to disagree with diplomatcdm or whatever.

[devinthedude]

I think the flop bet was fine. I check on the turn most of the time, because you could easily be CRd by a slowplayed K by 2 players, about the only logical hand they could call with would be A7 or Ax/images/graemlins/club.gif's. I cant believe that QT would call the flop. If the clubs don't make their flush they may bluff at you anyway, and the 7 might also. If one of them does have a K, you only lose one BB anyway. I really like checking on the turn here.