QQ in the SB

Typical 3-6 game. I just sat down and don't know my opponents. I pick up red queens in the SB. 4 limpers, I decide to see if the flop has an A or K, so I just call, BB checks. (Should I have raised here?) We take the flop 6 ways. Flop is J84 rainbow. I decide to check-raise. Should I have just bet out? The guy to my immediate left bets, 2 callers, I raise, all 3 call. Turn is 9, last suit, board is J849. I bet out, player to my left raises, fold, cold call, back to me. What's the move? I decide to fold. Without the caller between I probably call it down. Is this too weak? How should I have played it?

I would've raised QQ in the SB preflop. Since you just flat call, I would've lead on the flop instead of check raising. Reason behine this is someone would likely to 2 bet with a J, so you could 3 bet him.


Ok, so you got raised on the turn, it looks like the guy may have J9, so you still have 12 outs, so you should call on the turn and see what comes on the river.

This hand is similar to the one described in "Turn raise with probable 2nd best hand". I suggest you read that entire thread. It should give you plenty of ideas about your hand as well.


As for you hand, I would definitely call the turn raise and at least check and call the river. The turn raiser could have two pair but he may also have AJ and is raising to knock everyone else out and play heads-up. He may also have J,10 and is raising with top pair and a draw


The player who cold called two bets on the turn is likely to have a hand with a 10 in it. 10,9 is possible or maybe a 10 with an overcard (K,10?) and he made a loose call on the flop. If a 7 or Q came on the river, I'd check and see what the cold-caller does.

I think you got a problem in this hand because you didnt raise preflop. It might sound weird, but because if you raised preflop from BB you show strength, and opponents would have an idea were you are and therefore less likely to put moves on you (because they KNOW you're strong). I think this concept can be valuable when you're out of position. You're easier to read, but so are they. I think if you raised preflop, they wouldnt put a move with a jack on the turn here, if you also showed strength on any other street. You would probably hear from a jack on the flop.


Regards

1. In an unraised pot, raise with QQ in the blinds.


2. Since you did not raise BTF, a check-raise is a good idea.


3. Bear in mind that a ten for a str8 could win the pot.


I would have called here. If your only up against two pair,


you have an even better chance of winning.

I have no problem with your decision not to raise BTF. Keeping the pot small when you are badly out of position, and have a vulnerable hand like QQ, is sometimes a good idea. If you were to successfully get in a check-raise on the flop, you might be able to force opponents to either fold, or make a significant mathematical mistake by calling.


I think you should have bet the flop, then reraised if someone raised you. The check-raise wasn't a bad idea by any means, but by the time it got back to you, with a bettor and three callers, your raise was not going to drive anyone out of the pot. Now you did make the pot bigger, for those times when your hand stood up. However, you also made it more likely that your opponents would continue to chase you on the turn (because of the large pot), and that they would not be making a very large mistake if they did so.


Folding the turn was a bad move, IMO, but only borderline so. You had up to four outs for a straight, though the cold caller very well may have had a ten, so perhaps you only had three outs. However, the raiser may have just made two pair, and if this is so, you have outs. I wouldn't consider a queen to be an out though. Overall, I think you probably had enough equity left in the pot to call to the river, but again, it was probably borderline.


Dave in Cali

Dave,


A few things. I routinely call (or check in the blinds) with hands like QQ and JJ if there are 4 or more limpers. The way I see it, if an A or K flops, I'll never push everyone off, so I may as well look at the flop and see if I like it. On the other hand, I almost certainly have the best hand and I can't see how it would be wrong to put in extra money when I probably have the best hand, out of position or not. Now if there are only 2 or 3 limpers I would ALWAYS raise so that if an overcard flops I can represent it.


I really wanted to push people out on the flop, so I tried to check-raise, but when it got back to me I had no reason to believe I didn't have the best hand, so I raise for value. Also, by raising, people might let go a little easier on the turn.


On the turn I obviously have to bet out, but once I am raised, and there is a cold call, I have to think I am beat. Who would bluff raise me on the turn after I showed strength by obviously check-raising for value on the turn. Without the cold caller I call the hand down every time.


I HATE top pair or an overpair when the turn gets raised...

I agree with not raising preflop. I had this same situation (QQ in small blind) in a 3-6 game once and raised preflop, and got beat by A-K when a K hit. Of course it might not of, but I have found that QQ is not as great a hand as it looks. In my opinion it is much less strong than AA or KK, not just slightly less as it might appear. I would actually rather have AK rather than QQ, even though I don't have a pair yet with AK. There is only a 50% chance that an overcard to your Queens will not fall. To me, this is too much to raise. The one spot I might raise is if it is folded to the button, who makes a likely bluff raise to buy the pot, then I would reraise and try and get him heads up. But if a bunch of people call before it gets to me, I would no longer raise as I used to in the past.

Tim

Only a 50% chance that an over card will fall? That's sounds like an excellent reason to raise, especially if you're getting multiple callers. About half the time you will be beat by the overcard but the other half you have the best pair. What more can you ask for?

I see your point. I guess I am maybe overly cynical on this hand because it seems like whenever I raise with it preflop, an ace or king does fall and I get beat. I know that doesn't make it right, but there is a human reaction to continually getting burned making a particular play that tends to supersede logic sometimes. I still think it is a borderline play to raise or not raise preflop with QQ; given that, I don't think either play is too far off. I tend to side with Mike Caro in not liking to raise before the flop, in that the flop defines your hand to such a great extent that if you do not have AA or KK, you are usually better off just calling preflop (in my opinion). But, I don't think either decision is too far off.

Tim