Bad call from the BB, butchered hand

After reading this, feel free to chastize me and cast me out.


Fairly loose 3-6 kill game. One player limps and a relatively well playing tight player raises. The cutoff and button both cold-call (both are very loose), SB folds. I have Qc5c and figure I will be getting 9:1 odds to play, so I call. I knew I should have folded, but my hand put in the chips anyway. The limper calls and we see the flop 5 handed.


Flop comes Qd 3c 7s. Now what do I do? Bet? Check? Check-raise? I was certain that the pre-flop raiser would bet no matter what he had, so I decided to check and see what developed. It's checked to the raiser, who bets. The button calls and the cutoff folds. I just call and the limper calls.


Turn is another queen. I bet out and the limper calls again, raiser makes it two bets, button folds, I call, limper calls.


River is the definition of brick, the 2c. I check, limper checks, raiser bets, I call, limper calls. Raiser has pocket sevens and has the boat. Limper mucks.


So one small bet worth of a bad call pre-flop costs me 3.5 BB after the flop. D'OH!! When I saw the pre-flop raiser's hand, I was kind of surprised that he raised pre-flop second into the pot. Go figure.


Flames welcome.


Dave in Cali

I would probably bet out on the flop (under my rule of "I always bet the flop when I make a pair from the blinds"). Checkraising is also a viable alternative. The reason I like checkraising is that I can easily fold to a reraise (under my rule of "when its three bets on a rainbow uncoordinated board, top pair no kicker is no good"). It's a bit weak to bet out and then fold to a raise on the flop but that is also an option. Check-folding the flop is a vague possibility (given that you are making your preflop call based on a flush draw not a top pair draw). Checking and calling the flop is the worst option of the bunch IMO. Further, when you get raised on the turn, you can almost certainly fold (although I probably couldn't do it, I am sure it's correct).


I don't mind the call preflop since from early position. In fact, I don't see it as any different than calling a family pot on the button. I prefer to play this kind of hand from early position since I generally know whether or not I want to continue play based on the cards and therefore, my knowledge or lack of knowledge of my opponents actions (the benefit of late position) is less important to me. Either I hit and play or I miss and fold. I'm not expecting to steal a pot with a preflop raiser involved in any event (another benefit of late position is the ability to steal when no one is interested; the preflop raiser in LLHE is always interested!).


The preflop raiser with 77, well, just file that piece of information away in your sessional database and note that his raises do not demand the kind of respect you might have otherwise given.


David

I like the check-call on the flop.


1) It allows you to fold for no extra cost if you see significant action.


2) A bet has little value here. IF you bet, you are not going to get every one to fold. You get no information from anyone who calls your bet and leaves you with a frightful turn situation where you may be betting somebody else's hand. You are also likely to be raised by the preflop raiser (like you said, he has something pretty good to be raising preflop from the 2nd position as a relatively good tight player).


3) You are really waiting to see the turn card. If you improve, you continue. If you don't, you fold. A call might be justified on pot odds alone (5 outs assuming your Q is clean).


A check-raise makes no sense unless you really think your top pair-no kicker is the winner. It makes nobody fold, and puts more money in for all those draws out against you. Pretty much anything that doesn't help you hurts you.


A check-fold is certainly an option, but I would call one bet here since the pot odds are so large. I think this is a rare case where weak play works to your advantage on the flop.


Mojay

I like a check-raise on the flop in this situation to assess strength of opponents' hands. Easy laydown to a re-raise.