"Overs"

I don't get to play too much casino poker, because there aren't any in our area. This weekend I did get a chance to play and ran into (for me) a new concept, called "overs."


It was a 4-8 game in which about half the players were itching to get a 10-20 game started. They asked for "overs" buttons, which mean this: when only "overs" players are left in a pot the limits double to 8-16, starting with the next round of betting. Thus, if the last "non-over" player is knocked out on the $4 flop betting round then the turn round limit is $16.


I had already decided not to take an over button no matter what, due to bankroll considerations, but at one point 7 of the 10 players in the game had "overs" buttons.


My first impression is that this was an advantage for me, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. The reason for my thinking is that I was playing fewer starting hands than most of the players anyway, meaning that they only needed the other two out to make it an 8-16 game. When I played a hand the limits were going to stay at 4-8 -- a "bargain" rate for the people who were gambling it up. I tended to get more callers and get paid off more on my good hands because it didn't cost them as much. Or so it seemed.


Two other observations: (1) The "overs" concept seemed to create some lopsided overbetting situations, where "first in wins." In other words, if only 2-3 people bet the flop in an unraised pot and the remaining non-over mucks, the $16 bet can be about a half-pot sized bet and tends to chase the rest of the players unless their holding is especially good. (2) Had I been the only non-over player I wonder what the dynamics would have been? On one hand, it would have made every one notice me every hand, because my presence/non-presence would have dictated the betting limit. I can also see where they might have tried to muscle me out of certain pots, which could have worked to my advantage.


It sort of was like a kill-pot game (of which I have played a little bit) but not really.


One other query: I didn't notice whether the rake went up on overs pots. If it didn't, that would be a good argument for taking the button, I guess, and the ideal set-up would be 9 overs players and a rock without one.


Thoughts?

I like playing in overs games when I have one but I can't stand it when I don't have one (and I may or may not choose to take one based on session bankroll and opposition).


My reason is simple: over buttons tend to create implied collusion. The people with over buttons WANT the bigger game and tend to act in a collusionary way towards those without them.


For example, say you (without a button) and 5 people with buttons are the only preflop callers. Those 5 people often tend to start betting wildly to push you out so they can have their "big game". Sure, its nice when you have the nuts, but its always a tough time playing against colluders (even implied colluders). As you saw, it sometimes means that the gamblers will be paying you off. Sometimes it will mean that the gamblers spend the entire night running you down on miracles. High risk, high reward.


Regarding the play with overs anyways, I'd think that as the number of over button players get in (and the odds of an overs pot comes into play), it becomes more and more profitable to play longer shot draws on the early betting rounds as your implied odds on later streets become greater. Since your implied odds would be doubled, you could pretty well halve your required odds on the flop IF you think that you will definitely be in an overs pot after the flop.


On an aside, the funniest thing I ever saw was a 3-6 game with NO LIMIT over buttons. This game was shut down when a more experienced houseman showed up (no reason to bust all the 3-6 players THAT quickly, is there?).


David

Yes, over-buttons create "interesting table dynamics" to say the least. Be prepared for additional loose raises to get it down to the "serious" gamblers.


One VERY important consideration to whether you want to take an overs-button is where the other buttons are. In Holdem, you DEFINATELY want these players on your right with non-overs players on your left. That way, you have position most of the time when playing overs.


Very early in my career I came across a 1-4-8/pot-limit overs game. The open seat was right behind 4 of 5 of the players with these buttons. I just COULD not believe none of the other over-players took that seat. They must have been brain-dead NOT to want position all night while playing pot-limit.


- Louie