Chance of a Lifetime

[Gamblor]

Folks, tonight, Betar (an organization I belong to) is bringing in Walid Shoebat, an ex-PLO terrorist and Palestinian activist to talk to students on the University of Toronto Campus (Walid's story (http://answering-islam.org/Walid/israel.htm)).

He has organized terrorist fundraising and has participated in violence against Israeli soldiers and civilians. He has become a Christian, and has fought on both sides of the conflict. He's a little heavy on the Born-Again Christian thing, but scroll down to his experiences in Palestinian schools studying PLO propaganda and the myths surrounding events often held up by Arab Propagandists as the Zionist 'Original Sin' - Deir Yassin, "ethnic cleansing", etc. etc.

I am attending his lecture, and have been afforded the opportunity to ask him, live, on the air, a question.

If you could ask a terrorist one question, what would it be?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If you could ask a terrorist one question, what would it be?

Gas or Electricity? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Seriously, though for this particular Ex-Terrorist, I would like to know what changed his mind.

[superleeds]

Does he think the human race, jews, muslims, christians, americans, isralies (sp), saudis et al, will ever grow up?

Paul
(superleeds)

[Gamblor]

It can be found in the link in the post - but for a more concise (and more biased) version of the events of his life try this story... he's a born-again, but would you complain?

Walid Shoebat - A Palestinian Terrorist Turned Zionist
Jewish Bulletin News

It may sound like an oxymoron, but it's an apt description of Walid Shoebat, a would-be terrorist who now lives in the Bay Area.

In a recent appearance before Berkeley's Bridges to Israel group, Shoebat donned a kippah and proudly proclaimed Ani Tzioni - I am a Zionist - in Hebrew.

Shoebat's talk to a group of about 40 people, took place in the offices of Berkeley's Congregation Netivot Shalom. Bridges to Israel, founded locally by Seymour and Hilda Kessler, is not affiliated with the synagogue, but some of its members are.

Shoebat, 42, hails from Beit Sahour, outside of Bethlehem. He is the son of a Palestinian Muslim father and an American Christian mother. His great-grandfather on his mother's side was the mayor of Eureka in Humboldt County, while his grandfather on his father's side was friendly with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseni, who allied himself with Adolf Hitler.

Shoebat's parents met in the United States, married and moved back to the West Bank. Once there, his father took away his mother's passport. Though she tried escaping several times, she was unable to.

As a young man, Shoebat participated in some political activities - including putting a Palestinian flag on top of a mosque and throwing rocks on Jews praying at the Western Wall.

Shoebat was chosen for a special mission: to deliver a loaf of bread with some explosives inside to the Bank Leumi branch in Bethlehem.

These actions landed him in jail, where he encountered some militants who chose the 16-year-old for a special mission: to deliver a loaf of bread with some explosives inside to the Bank Leumi branch in Bethlehem.

"At the last minute I got terrified to death," he said. "I knew that I didn't want to, and threw it on top of the roof. Fortunately no one got hurt."

In another incident, he "almost lynched an Israeli soldier." The soldier was trying to catch a child who threw a rock at him, and Shoebat and others descended upon the man, inflicting injuries before the victim was able to escape.

When he was 18, he came to the United States and became an activist in Chicago, fund-raising for the Palestinian Liberation Organization.

But Shoebat is a completely different person now. If he could, he would like to meet that soldier, he said. "I would like to seek his forgiveness for this. It's something on my mind for a long time that I want to clear up, and I don't know how to go about it."

The transition began after Shoebat married a Christian woman, and in trying to prove to her that Islam was the true path, he began reading the Bible to prove to her how wrong she was.

"In 1993 I started looking into my enemy's book, the Tanach," he told the Bridges to Israel gathering, "and I came to the conclusion that the Jewish people are the most peaceful people on earth."

Now he is a Christian, whose love for Israel and the Jewish people is genuine.

"I come to you out of love for your people and your Bible, to say my people are wrong. The Arabs and Muslims are wrong.

"The Jew has the right to return to his land. Does this make me a fanatic? Fine!"

His beliefs have strained his relationship with his family. "My own father wants to kill me," he said. At a family reunion several years ago, he was told he must have been brainwashed by the Jews. Fundamentalist Muslims have said he must die because he abandoned Islam, he added. But this doesn't sway him.

While he works as a computer programmer, his real purpose now, he said, is to spread what he sees as the truth.

"That's my mission now - to go to Americans and churches and anywhere I can go and explain God's plan for the state of Israel, and how God intended Israel to be a light unto the nations, and how all of our hatred toward Israel is really evil."

When asked later why he didn't have more sympathy for his people's struggle for a homeland, Shoebat said if more Palestinians understood the Jewish claim to the land, as is told in the Bible, they too would be swayed.

"When I examined what I've experienced and documented the facts, I came to the emphatic conclusion that I was throwing rocks without ever listening to the Jewish cause," he said. "I made my conclusions about Israel as an occupier without ever learning Israel's history.

"Why would I carry a rock or a club and hit a soldier on the head? Because I was indoctrinated in the mosque and the school.

"I never learned about the Jewish connection to the land," he concluded. "But the reality is, this is simply a people and their desire to come home."

[Utah]

I would ask him one of the following:

"Boxers or briefs?"
"Did you ever hang out with Alger in the old days?"
"Short of annihilation, is there any way to stop motivated terrorists? Is so, how?"

[Gamblor]

Post deleted by Gamblor

[Gamblor]

I noticed the "English" were not included. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[andyfox]

I wouldn't want to ask this gentleman anything.

His "facts" are not facts. I have always hesitated to get involved in these tit-for-tat historical arguments because it's time to get past this nonsense. But Walid's story is indeed a story.

Those who falsify history are condemned to live it again.

Let's take one example: "A Land of Desolation." He quotes many Europeans to the effect that the land was a barren wasteland. This was what Europeans always said when they came to a land that was not like Europe. I live in California. The Spanish claimed it was virtually empty when they got here. But it was the most densely populated area of North America, containing some 370,000 people.

He also repeats the lie that the Palestinians were recent arrivals and thus have no more claim to the land than the also recently arrived Zionists. This is the claim made popular by Joan Peters in her dishonorable book, a claim that has been definitively refuted by many responsible historians.

Desolate is defined in my dictionary as barren or laid waste; devastated. This is the typical colonist's reaction to land that needs to be changed from the way the current residents live to the colonist's obviously better way of living.

Many Zionists knew better. Ad Ha'am recognized the presence of the Palestinians and chastized his fellow Zionists for the way they treated them. Jabotinsky knew that the current residents of Palestine would not yield their land peacefully.

[superleeds]

Change any, include any.

Believe it or not, it was an unconsious omission. I know the British are hardly blameless when it comes to the state of the world, but it was just an immediate response to your post. As an atheist I guess what I would be trying to ask him, as someone who as been involved on both sides of the fence, is doesn't the hypocrisy of it all drive him insane, but then again a true believer in god, any god, would be able justify his/her (that better /images/graemlins/shocked.gif) actions, at least to themselves I suppose.

Paul

[Gamblor]

He quotes many Europeans to the effect that the land was a barren wasteland.

The size of British Mandate Palestine promised to Israel was about 40,000 sq. mi. of land. The general consensus is about 400,000 Arabs in British Mandate Palestine. That's an average of 10 Arabs per square mile. That qualifies as relatively barren.

He also repeats the lie that the Palestinians were recent arrivals and thus have no more claim to the land than the also recently arrived Zionists.

Who says it's a lie? And how exactly is Joan Peters' book From Time Immemorial dishonorable? Would you care to cite one of these responsible historians, or are you simply repeating something you read on electronicintifada.org, which naturally would speak only the truth... First lesson: When someone writes something that affirms what you already know, it is not an ipso facto truth (that is, it's not the truth simply because it's there). It is the source of the information that matters - a nation that allows freedom of information is in a propaganda war against a dictatorial regime that controls all information.

Ad Ha'am

You mean Achad Ha'am?

The Zionists intentions were to live there peacefully amongst the Arabs. Proof? Most immigrants in the First Aliyah (1882-1903) were Russian refugees looking to resettle in Palestine, but the first Zionist Congress was not until 1897. When the Arabs began to notice the increased Jewish immigration, they desired to scare away other immigrants, as the 1937 Peel Commission (http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/08e38a718201458b052565700072b358?OpenDocument) Report finally acknowledged. The Arabs, at the height of the Arab nationalism movement, feared the prospect of a large Jewish minority in Palestine, while Arab nations all around them were cheerfully declaring independence.

It's the same as everywhere else for all time, Andy. Nobody minds the Jews as long as they shut up and stay hidden - but the second they're large enough to be noticed, out come the weapons. And, you'll recall, that the British severely restricted the weapons Jews in Palestine were permitted to own, so it was hardly . When the reality hit the Zionists, they had little choice but to fight.

[Gamblor]

It was little more than a tongue-in-cheek comment, more a joke really than anything - it could be argued that the British started this whole mess to begin with.

As an atheist I guess what I would be trying to ask him, as someone who as been involved on both sides of the fence, is doesn't the hypocrisy of it all drive him insane

Don't you see that you are the epitome of the problem? You are an athiest because you don't believe in God, and as such, have determined that anyone who does believe in god is a fool for placing his faith in an unknown entity - yet condemn those who think you're a fool for not living your life according to the ethics and values taught by the Almighty himself!

Naturally, this assumes I have your point of view correct. If I don't, then please enlighten me.

[andyfox]

"The size of British Mandate Palestine promised to Israel was about 40,000 sq. mi. of land. The general consensus is about 400,000 Arabs in British Mandate Palestine. That's an average of 10 Arabs per square mile. That qualifies as relatively barren."

400,000 people qualifiees as "relative barren." This was indeed the attitude taken by the mainstream Zionist movement.

"Who says it's a lie? And how exactly is Joan Peters' book From Time Immemorial dishonorable? Would you care to cite one of these responsible historians, or are you simply repeating something you read on electronicintifada.org, which naturally would speak only the truth..."

-Every historian who has looked at the facts says it's a lie. The most recent is Bernard Wasserstein. Peters distorts evidence and plagiarized other writing. Her book is dishonorable. This is old news.

I have never visited the electronicinfitada.org site.

When someone writes something that affirms what you already know, it is not an ipso facto truth (that is, it's not the truth simply because it's there). It is the source of the information that matters

I agree 100%.

"Ad Ha'am . . . You mean Achad Ha'am?"

-Yes, of course. Sorry for the typo.

"The Zionists intentions were to live there peacefully amongst the Arabs"

-For the most part, I agree. But they also intended to take over Palestine, to "reclaim" the land, to remake it in their image. It was unreasonable to expect the current inhabitants to go along with this, as Jabotinksy impolitely pointed out. The resident Arabs opposed the Zionist influx from the very beginning. The Zionist resort to force may indeed have been the only way to win the battle.

I shouldn't have got involved in this discussion with you because it's precisely this tit-for-tat falsification of history, done on both sides, that keeps the parties from focusing on the issue at hand: how do the two peoples move from 100 years of killing to something else? The gentleman who you will hear speak evokes the Bible as a justification for the Zionist movement. This is a recipe for continued disaster.

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
It was little more than a tongue-in-cheek comment, more a joke really than anything

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah sorry, had a chit night, lost over 40BB, I'm in a bad mood. Been going on too long /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
it could be argued that the British started this whole mess to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

and very persuasively I imagine

I said
[ QUOTE ]
As an atheist I guess what I would be trying to ask him, as someone who as been involved on both sides of the fence, is doesn't the hypocrisy of it all drive him insane

[/ QUOTE ]

You said
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you see that you are the epitome of the problem? You are an athiest because you don't believe in God, and as such, have determined that anyone who does believe in god is a fool for placing his faith in an unknown entity - yet condemn those who think you're a fool for not living your life according to the ethics and values taught by the Almighty himself!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is a very good point. What right have I to demand tolerance when I have no tolerance for religion.

To me religion is just a philosophy, any and all religions are just a way to control society, something which is needed and has been tryed in many different forms religious or not. Maybe there is no answer, maybe there will always be people who have a problem with some aspect of society (I know I have) and are willing to violently enforce there will (I havn't). After all terrorism is not new despite what you read in the American press.

Good luck tonight and let us know what you asked and how it went. And if he doesn't answer to your satisfaction don't let him of the hook /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Paul

[Gamblor]

[Gamblor]

Every historian who has looked at the facts says it's a lie. The most recent is Bernard Wasserstein. Peters distorts evidence and plagiarized other writing. Her book is dishonorable. This is old news.

Re: Plagiarism: doesn't mean she's lying.
Re: Distortion: No less than Chomsky, I'm sure.
And Wasserstein's credentials?

-For the most part, I agree. But they also intended to take over Palestine, to "reclaim" the land, to remake it in their image. It was unreasonable to expect the current inhabitants to go along with this, as Jabotinksy impolitely pointed out. The resident Arabs opposed the Zionist influx from the very beginning. The Zionist resort to force may indeed have been the only way to win the battle.

Right as rain.

how do the two peoples move from 100 years of killing to something else?

The settler movement is based on the idea that Jews have the inalienable right (not the exclusive right, but a right nonetheless) to live on the biblical land. It should be noted that while the Arabs demand control over Islam's third holiest site, even considering relenquishing Arab control over Judaism's second and third holiest sites (1) the Ma'arat haMachpela in Hevron and 2) Kever Yosef - Joseph of technicolour dreamcoat fame's Tomb - in Shechem, now Nablus) is incomprehensible.

The Palestinians disagree with the right of the settlers to visit the sites and live in the region, and terrorize "West Bank" communities on a daily basis, which is merely an extension of the original terrorization of the Zionists, only more localized. The IDF goes in to protect the lives of the settlers who are establishing communities. In fact, many settlements work hand-in-hand with nearby Arab towns offering employment and amenities for mutual gain. The settlers are not wandering into Arab towns to set off bombs (with but one exception - deluded maniac Baruch Goldstein).

This is the pretense by which Arab land must be expropriated - to build military installations to protect settlers under constant attack. The Palestinians see more and more IDF troops and understandably go even more haywire than before, but do not recall the original reason for these troops, because the PA's totalitarian educational system has told them (and the Western media) otherwise. Anyone who thinks the military presence in the West Bank is only about suicide bombings is delusional. It is about the right of Jews to settle where they wish, without fear of danger. And so we continue...

The gentleman who you will hear speak evokes the Bible as a justification for the Zionist movement. This is a recipe for continued disaster.

Agreed. But I'm more interested to know why, at some point in his life, terrorism was the best answer to his problems.

[andyfox]

She distorted and she lied and she plagiarized. See the critique by Israeli historian Yeshoshua Porath in the New York Review of Books of January16, 1986, and the follow-up debate in the issue of March 27, 1986. Check, as well, Justin McCarthy's book, The Population of Palestine: Population History and Statistics of the Late Ottoman Period and the Mandate. There is also the article by Norman Finkelstein in Blaming the Victims which shows her plagiarism. Finkelstein is a noted critic of Israel, but read the article and judge for yourself. She plagiarized from Ernst Frankenstein's book Justice for My People, published in 1944. One can also consult Albert Hourani's review in The Observor and David Gilmour's in the London Review of Books for further evidence of Peters's duplicitousness. Two original endorsers of Peters's book, Daniel Pipes and Ronald Sanders publicly distanced themselves from her "scholarship," after becoming aware of its shortcomings. The June 15, 1986 issue of Haaretz reported that at an international conference on Palestinian demography at Haifa University, virtually all the participants denigrated her demographic thesis and that most authoritative scholar in attendance, Yeshoshua Ben-Arieh of Hebrew University, condemned the Peters book for discrediting the Zionist cause. In Israel, the book was almost universally condemned.

[Gamblor]

[Gamblor]

Wow, considering this was a Betar event (Betar was the Zionist Youth Military organization started by Ze'ev Jabotinsky), it was surprisingly religious in nature.

It can be heard at www.toviasingershow.com. (http://www.toviasingershow.com.)

Shoebat explained his upbringing in the PLO controlled territory and his subsequent denounciation of the brand of Islam he was taught growing up by his grandfather who happened to be close friends with Haj Amin el-Husseini, the notorious Hitler collaborator.

I asked him if the anti-semitism throughout the Arab world can in any way be connected to so called "Human Rights" violations, and he quickly dismissed it, claiming that he had been taught since he was a child that Jews were monkeys and dogs.

Insightful...

[Utah]

His answer made me think of the flip side of the equation. I have asked several of my close Jewish friends if they think Palestinians are "equal" to Jews and whether a Palestinian's life is worth the same as a Jewish life. Not a single one thought that a Palestinian was "worth" as much as a Jew.

If each side views the other as less human, there can never be true peace.

[Gamblor]

I have made the point a thousand times here that the Jews are not a monolith.

American Jews are hardliners because its easy for them to sit in their comfortable houses in the suburbs in their backyard pools and complain about the Arabs, having never met one and having never learnt anything besides what their rabbi tells them to say. If they want to kill Arabs, let them go to the army and shoot Arabs if they want. They can enjoy the court martial and the Military Prison, which is not fun, I can assure you.

The Israeli problem has nothing to do with the opinion that Arabs are anything less than human. It has to do with a people that are systematically taught to hate and murder, at an cost, the Jews.

[spamuell]

I have asked several of my close Jewish friends if they think Palestinians are "equal" to Jews and whether a Palestinian's life is worth the same as a Jewish life. Not a single one thought that a Palestinian was "worth" as much as a Jew.

I agree with Gamblor on this one (and that is rare), "Jews are not monolith". I know many Jews (in fact, I am one), and although there are some Jews who think this way, and it's an alarming number, it is not the majority (in my experience of Jews in the UK).

[Cyrus]

Yeah, I am sure you will find a lot of back-slapping responses to your request! What it all domes down to, in my book, is this :

You are a follower of Zabotinsky's ideas, a man who advocated the supremacy of Jews and the conquering of Arab lands through all means necessary. You belong to a group in your college that supports and actively promotes those Reformed Zionist beliefs. And you have invited a born-again Christian, an ex-Arab, an ex-terrorist Arab mind you, to speak at your college. And you recommend that we be informed on this man's point of view by checking out the link to an Evangelical Christian website that advocates the conquering of Arab land "by the Jews" because this will signify the return of the Messiah! (The website proclaims that without the Jews being masters of all the Holy Land, the Messiah will not return. Whoo hah -- as Al Pacino said.)

So, then, you ask what you should ask that man ?

You should ask that man how come he went from believing one foolishness (=blowing up women and children) to believing another (=the return of Jesus) (and Jews' vital importance for that scenario).

...What a waste it is to lose your mind.

[Gamblor]

You are a follower of Zabotinsky's ideas, a man who advocated the supremacy of Jews and the conquering of Arab lands through all means necessary.

Wrong. Yabotinsky's ideology was born after the 1903 pogrom against the Jews of Kish'nev, and operated under the assumption that:
1) The Jews can not rely on other nations to protect them, and they will never be accepted as equals until they stand up for themselves.
2) The Jews must therefore, educate and train themselves in order to protect themselves.
3) The best protection is a self-sustaining homeland with a Jewish majority, but equal rights for all - otherwise, we have another Jewish minority subject to the whims of whoever happens to be in charge - the same situation the Jews face everywhere else.
4) Given the choice of moving a few hundred thousand Arabs to other lands of Arab rule, or the perpetual second-class status of the Jewish nation, the choice is clear.

You should ask that man how come he went from believing one foolishness (=blowing up women and children) to believing another (=the return of Jesus) (and Jews' vital importance for that scenario).

He answered that. I actually made a little fun of him in the chat afterward, joking that "You went from the greatest Jew haters of our present, to the greatest Jew haters of our past." He laughed it off, saying something like we all make mistakes and the Christians understand the Jews.

He tried to convert his American Christian wife after marrying her, as is Islamic law, and having grown up hearing his grandparents (the friends of Haj Amin el-Husseini himself) bombard him with how evil the Tanach (Bible) was, he decided to read it himself, and realized how much more peace-loving it was than the Koran. His father, he explained, wishes he were dead, and his family in Bethlehem is constantly threatened - he claimed he receives regular death threats.

His essential claim in response to my question (see: What I asked), was that Arab anti-semitism and violence predated any sort of Zionist movement in Palestine and throughout the Arab world. He used to go on field trips to Israeli Zoos and the teacher would explain that the monkeys were descendents of Jews. He explained that his upcoming book is entitled "The Annihilation of Islam". Pretty interesting for an ex-PLO.

I later asked him, off the air, about the potential for Palestinian civil war upon declaration of the new state, between the secular PA and the Islamist Hamas. He told us that the PLO's memberhood is as Islamist and is no more secular than Hamas - they just hide it better. The internal plan is to liquidate the Christian Arabs as soon as a Palestinian state is established. He made it pretty clear the Palestinians are Muslim and he sang us a few PLO "songs" in Arabic from his childhood (my Arabic vocabulary consists of maybe a dozen words), which he translated as more or less slaughter the Jews, Allah commands me to spill my blood, sharpen my bones and make my blood boil, etc. etc.

This is his story, not mine. Say what you want about his religious choices, but he has been on the inside since birth and he knows what's going on there.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
If you could ask a terrorist one question, what would it be?


[/ QUOTE ]

Did it make you feel good when you knew your bombs killed women and children? And how does someone claiming to be a muslim justify killing women and children to themselves and their god?

al

[Gamblor]

And how does someone claiming to be a muslim justify killing women and children to themselves and their god?

"liberating Allah's land for the true believers."

Read "From the inside out" for a better idea of where he stands.

His main problem with Islam, the following:

In Judaism and Christianity, the Rabbis and their councils, and the Pope himself, are interpreters of God's laws, but their words are not God's words. In Islam, the Koran has various contradictory laws, for example, in one Sura, Muslims may not drink alcohol during Ramadan, while in another Sura, alcohol is entirely prohibited. The Caliphs are divinely charged with determining what laws to follow, and as such, any word of theirs is the word of God. As such, an Arab Caliph, under influence from political leadership, can demand that one verse of the Koran, say, the respect for fellow man, can be usurped by another, say, the call to Jihad to liberated all lands for the Muslims. No Allah-fearin Muslim would dare disobey a Caliph, so onward we fight.

In fact, the guy, having lived by both the bible and the Koran, made the claim that Islam is inherently evil because of what the Koran tells Muslims to do, and how easily it is corrupted. The "moderate" Muslim is a Western myth.

If you want to hear the show, www.toviasinger.com. (http://www.toviasinger.com.) The angle is blatantly right-wing, but it's still worth a listen if you don't follow that, just for the ex-terrorist.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
American Jews are hardliners because its easy for them to sit in their comfortable houses in the suburbs in their backyard pools and complain about the Arabs, having never met one and having never learnt anything besides what their rabbi tells them to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just curious as to whether Canadian Jews are included in this statement.

[Gamblor]

For the most part, yes.

Canadians, I find, have grown up in a far less militaristic society and a far less "My balls are bigger" society, so they're less inclined to have the Likud flex its muscles.

They still spout the same hypocritical Zionist crap and still claim they love Israel, but when push comes to shove they still like their comfortable life in Canada as opposed to the relatively difficult day-to-day life in Israel.

As for me, well, I'm here for now, so I can hardly talk.

[Easy E]

"Would you prefer that I shoot you right here or drag you through the streets by your intestines?"

[Utah]

Maybe - although 2 of the people I asked lived for a long time in Israel. Are you saying that if I asked the Israeli jews the following questions that the majority would answer yes to both questions:
1) "Are Palestinians equal to Jews in the eyes of God?"
2) "Is a Palestinian life worth the same as a Jewish life?"

Also, don't forget that american jews have a big effect of life in Israel and thus effect the Palestinian situation.

The Israeli problem has nothing to do with the opinion that Arabs are anything less than human. It has to do with a people that are systematically taught to hate and murder, at an cost, the Jew

That is not entirely accurate. The situation is far more complicated than that.

[Gamblor]

1) "Are Palestinians equal to Jews in the eyes of God?"

2) "Is a Palestinian life worth the same as a Jewish life?"


Why don't you ask some Palestinians the following questions:

1) Do Jews control the American government?
2) Is a Jewish life worth the same as a dog's?
3) Do Jews control the world?
4) Are Jews controlled by the Devil?
5) If you could, would you kill all the Jews in Israel?

[Utah]

Respectfully, I don't see your point. Please explain.

Also, regardless if you think they are meaningless, what do you think would be the majority answers to my questions?

[Gamblor]

Here's my point:

The thing about Israel, is that there's no majority answer to any question. The society is majority Jewish, yes, but so fragmented between religious and secular, Russian, Middle Eastern, European, American and Ethiopian, peaceniks and hawks, that even asking that kind of question is a waste of time. Every person in Israel has their own opinion because they're entitled to. You'll get many who say that for the security of Jews, because of the last 2000 years, the Arabs simply cannot be here (Likud, UTJ, NRP, Yisrael B'aliya, Shas), and you'll get many who demand a bi-national state with no religious influence whatsoever (Meretz, Labour, and Shinui). You'll get hundreds of different answers to your questions.

The Arabs are fed ONE story, sanitized and published by the Palestinian Authority. (It should be noted that in the lecture Walid described the PA as feircely Islamic, NOT the secular organization they claim to be). They ALL are subject to the same newspaper, and the same education curriculum determined by the PA. You will get very few different answers to those questions, and even fewer will be favourable towards peace prospects.

[Utah]

Okay - interesting point. Then what is the answer - to feed them a different story by destroying the PA?

[Gamblor]

Education is a start.

Educate the masses to realize that Jews are not monkeys and dogs, that their problems do not stem from Israel or Jews, but rather from the people who have been leading them for the past hundred years.

Of course, can you imagine the uproar in the Arab world if the US or Israel went in and began running Arab schools?

[Cyrus]

"[The ex-terrorist's] essential claim ...was that Arab anti-semitism and violence predated any sort of Zionist movement in Palestine and throughout the Arab world."

Utter bull. This cockamany theory that has become a staple of the Zionist propaganda machine is totally unsupported by History. The only ones that still seriously believe that Arabs (and muslims!) were serious anti-semites are people like M and the "sources" he quotes. And I/m not talking serious as Poland-serious, I'm talking they weren't even Frnace-serious!

"The internal plan [of the PLO] is to liquidate the Christian Arabs as soon as a Palestinian state is established."

Yeah, I guess that's why Arafat has married a Christian woman, then. He wants to do his killing without going far from home!..

What utter stupidity. The fact is that the Palestinians are among the most secular peoples of the Middle East. And until Israel started heavily subsidizeing and supporting Hams and other such organisations, in order to counter the PLO's supreme influence, the relgioous fanatics were doing strictly backwater work, charities and the like.

The Palestinians wanting to sluaghter Christians as soon as they take power?! That's simply more bull from the brand of zionism that has allied itself with that particular part of the lunatic Christian Right which expects the Second Coming any day now.

"Given the choice of moving a few hundred thousand Arabs to other lands of Arab rule, or the perpetual second-class status of the Jewish nation, the choice is clear."

I know! Lebensraum, always the lebensraum! But when I suggest that Zionism, like most versions of extreme nationalism, is not that different from Nazi ideology, you guys start flapping about in protest as if caught in the spotlight.

[MMMMMM]

Cyrus, in a previous thread I gave good examples and sources regarding pre-Israel anti-Jewish sentiment and practices in Arab lands. You may choose not to believe it, but I would consider that to be ignoring reality. Arabs/Muslims most certainly did oppress Jews in the Middle East prior to the formation of Israel.

Furthermore, Islam itself, in multiple passages in the Koran, calls for subjugating all non-Muslims (until they either convert and confess the faith or until they are thoroughly subjugated to Islam and pay the poll tax). So if Muslims are merely to follow Islam literally they have to subjugate all non-Muslims (since the Koran is the absolute word of God, good for all time, as revealed to Muhammad by the archangel Gabriel). This "necessary" process of subjugation of non-Muslims is separate from and in addition to any anti-Jewish sentiments. So putting it all together, and recalling that I did provide essay sources showing clear oppression of Jews by Arabs/Muslims for centuries in the Middle East--you basically have a very distorted view of history--and further, your view does not even make sense when considering the macro religious issues (since Islam is not only a religion, it is also a political/cultural prescription for ordering the world).

[Gamblor]

I guess that's why Arafat has married a Christian woman, then. He wants to do his killing without going far from home!..

Arafat's wife lives in Europe. That is far from Arafat's home, which is Ramallah.

Furthermore, her status as Arafat's wife and as a Christian does not necessarily mean she will die, and I never claimed as such. Neither does it mean that the Palestinian state will not subjugate Christians or "cleanse" them.

Lebensraum, always the lebensraum! But when I suggest that Zionism, like most versions of extreme nationalism, is not that different from Nazi ideology, you guys start flapping about in protest as if caught in the spotlight.

The Jews of Europe were never as belligerent or violent towards the Germans as the Arabs of pre-Israel Palestine were to the Jews. Thus, your comparison of the goals of the two ideologies is baseless.

The best part of your useless, pathetic rant? You're telling a rank member of the PLO what the PLO is all about.

[Cyrus]

"Arafat's [Christian] wife lives in Europe. That is far from Arafat's home, which is Ramallah."

So, in your mind, the fact that she is away from the Ramallah danger zone annuls my argument that if the Palestinians wanted to "slaughter all Christians" why the hell would Arafat marry a Christian woman?? The mind boggles.

I could also think of a couple of husband & wife jokes here but this is all too tragic for jokes.

"The Jews of Europe were never as belligerent or violent towards the Germans as the Arabs of pre-Israel Palestine were to the Jews. Thus, your comparison of the goals of the two ideologies is baseless."

You have the audacity to quote at my face Zabotinsky (and to admit that you belong to an organisation that espouses and promotes his ideology) and then you are claiming, without shame, that Zionism is not extreme nationalism?

You have posted, in an astonishingly revealing moment of support for ethnic cleansing (and I quote ya), that "Given the choice of moving a few hundred thousand Arabs to other lands of Arab rule, or the perpetual second-class status of the Jewish nation, the choice is clear." Yet, you dare deny that the beligerence of the Reformed Zionist movement is of the highest order?

To whom exactly have you deluded yourself that you are speaking to?

"The best part of your useless, pathetic rant? You're [sic] telling a rank member of the PLO what the PLO is all about."

Yeah, right.

This was a man who is a born-again Christian, of the apocalyptic persuasion no less, a man who claims that Our Lord Jesus Christ is Coming for the Second & Final Time around (no re-buys?!), a man who belongs to a particular brand of the Extreme Christian Right, a brand that wants "the Jews to be in Jerusalem" because ...this will speed up that Second Coming (occupation of Jerusalem as doubling the blinds?), etc etc And you want me to take seriously that man's testimony about the PLO, not just when everything he says contradicts everything ever written and testified about the PLO, but when he comes invited and paid for by your organisation of anti-PLO nationalists?? What can I tell ya, I guess I just can't see the light.

No, my man, sorry. This won't go down as easily as you'd like. Your organisation's true feelings about the gentiles have been revealed when you posted here a few months ago that Americans should just pay up their tax money to the aid of Israel and shut up! I can dig up that post 'fya want. A message to Americans and/or Christians that tells much more of a story than that useless, pathetic rant about ...Palestinians killing millions of Christians.

Nice try, though.

[Chris Alger]

You know, the kind with the horizontal leather strap across the chest that reminds us of . . . the thing we cannot say. Or go around giving each other fascist salutes, as you did in the days when Betar resembled the other notorious paramilitary youth groups so popular in Europe in the 1930's? Maybe this has changed.

Other things haven’t. I notice your nasty little outfit’s website (http://www.betar.org/index.htm ) insists that Israel must subjugate not only from the West Bank and Gaza but also the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. According to Betar’s self-described “ideology,” the “deed that deed without which there can be no Zionism, or a Jewish state, or a real Jewish nation, is the creation of a Jewish majority in Eretz Yisrael on both sides of the Jordan.” Note: not merely a Jewish “state,” but a “Jewish majority.” And since this can’t happen unless millions of Arabs vacate the premises by one means or the other, the genocidal threat, for which I couldn't find any disclaimer, seems clear. Or perhaps they can live in refugee camp squalor like the millions of Palestinians who already have for four generations. Then you guys can say “it wasn’t as if we didn’t give them a choice.”

I suppose it was predictable that for all your cheap rhetoric about “defense" against "terrorism,” you actually belong to a Ku Klux-type outfit that still adheres to the old revisionist scheme to make Jordan Jewish. No wonder the Israeli right wing balks at declaring Israel’s borders, making Israel the only country on the planet unwilling to do so, the only one unwilling to acknowledge that its geography is finite. For people who belong to Betar, the continued compulsion to steal other people’s land at gunpoint is a multi-decade work in progress!

I guess that’ll also do for your claims about fearing “genocide” at the hands of people your group wants to eradicate, or at the refusal of some Palestinians to acknowledge Israel on maps. After all, the group you belong to believes that Israel still has a lot of map making yet to do, which invovles displacing millions of Arabs who, in their predictably backward Arab fashion, stubbornly refuse to recognize Israel’s right to eradicate them. And who on earth should care about your complaint about being ethnically hated by the ethnic groups whom Betar and it's Zionist allies have placed on its list of targets?

You can also spare us the hypocritical rhetoric about Arabs as “culturally inferior” on the grounds that, among other things, they educate their youth to worship “martyrs.” The Betar website also has a shrine (http://www.betar.org/history/hist-h.htm) to Shlomo Ben-Yosef, one of “many martyrs” adored by your group as “an example of such a hero for generations to come.” And Mr. Ben-Yosef’s great accomplishment? He was "hanged for shooting an Arab bus." (Jewish Virtual Library (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/irgun.html)). Most Zionists were sickened by Ben-Yosef’s attempted atrocity. “I am not shocked that a Jew was hanged in Palestine,” Ben-Gurion reportedly said. “I am ashamed of the deed that led to the hanging.” Not Betar, however. More than 50 years after the fact, after rivers of blood from terrorism with no end in sight, the group you belong to still hails one of the region's prototerrorists as a heroic martyr and role model for children. Children who are no doubt subjected to long lectures by the likes of you, about “inferior” Arabs who glorify terrorists as martyrs, but only because they are “Arabs” or “Muslims,” as if you were trying to create some sort of a idiot's masterpiece of racist perversity.

The Betar site also includes the usual apologetics for IZL terror, including the bombing of the King David hotel (91 murdered), on whom it blames not the bombers (like former Betar leader Menachim Begin) but on “numerous flaws in the security arrangements in the King David.” I understand that it’s customary for psychopaths to blame their victims, but this is a real howler.

[lunchmeat]

Does anyone else find it ironic that a message informing people about a speech from a born again Christian is posted in a gambling forum... Or is this sort of garbage the norm around here?

[Cyrus]

"...the kind with the horizontal leather strap across the chest...

Methinks that was a diagonal strap - and how strapping it was too!

Apart from the above navigational mishap, your post is as spot on as the darts champion best shot -- which is why it will fly directly over the heads of our resident aficionado of terror.

[Gamblor]

Perhaps if the gentiles hadn't spent thousands of years telling the Jews they weren't welcome, the Jews wouldn't form organizations dedicated to self-defence.

Betar has long stood for peace with its Arab neighbours, and promotes as such everywhere it goes. But safe, Jewish-majority state, with secure borders, and where Jews have full self-determination, is a pre-requisite for peace.

You folks and your ancestors started this war. We're happy to end it, but not so we can go back to being a minority where our stores are smashed and we wear little yellow stars on our jackets, and we're accused of eating the blood of Christian babies.

[Gamblor]

"Given the choice of moving a few hundred thousand Arabs to other lands of Arab rule, or the perpetual second-class status of the Jewish nation, the choice is clear." Yet, you dare deny that the beligerence of the Reformed Zionist movement is of the highest order?

Yes, I deny that it is Jewish beligerence that forced the Zionists into a choice like this.

Palestinians killing millions of Christians.

The word I used was "liquidate". As in, liquidate inventory to make room for the new. If you believe the Christians of the Palestinian state won't be the Jews of pretty much everywhere else, then by all means, go ahead and move to Jenin. I hear its beautiful this time of year.

Furthermore, I never said shut up and pay, as you so eloquently lied. Dig it up. All I said is that you don't have to care if you're trading a penny on your Benjy to the government in exchange for a few million Jews. Hey, put me down for a couple while you're at it. Always wanted myself a Jew. They don't shut up though, you gotta get 'im with a rolled newspaper.

If only they'd just shut up and die quietly.

[Chris Alger]

"Perhaps if the gentiles hadn't spent thousands of years telling the Jews they weren't welcome, the Jews wouldn't form organizations dedicated to self-defence."

So Israel should conquer a country with whom it has a full peace treaty and peaceful relations for over 30 years, as an act of "self-defence." Nevermind defence against what, in the cuckoo world of modern Zionist theory, aggression = defense.

"Betar has long stood for peace with its Arab neighbours."

Conquest = peace. (Or maybe you mean the peace of the grave).

"[Betar] promotes [peace] everywhere it goes."

By worshipping terrorists as "heros" and martyrs" on the world wide web. Glorifying violence against innocents = promoting peace.

"You folks and your ancestors started this war."

Bystanders = perpetrators.

"We're happy to end it, but not so we can go back to being a minority where our stores are smashed and we wear little yellow stars on our jackets, and we're accused of eating the blood of Christian babies."

And, of course, the oldest excuse: since everyone hates the Jews, it's everyone else's fault.

Get out of the sun. Hurry.

[Gamblor]

[Cyrus]

So, Utah's, Tom Haley's, Chris Alger's, Nicky G's and the other miscreants' ancestors started the Middle East war, is that it? Or, shall I say it more explicitly, the war between the gentiles and the Jews? Is that correct or am I misquoting ya? Ah, it's always refreshing to see a piece of fossil in the process of resurrection! The one consistent staple of fascist thinking has been the collective guilt heaped upon the "opposing tribes" and their offspring, along with proclamations of the fascist's tribe supremacy over all others (depending on the fascist this can be about "chosen people", or his "pure race", their "noble destiny", the "white man's burdern", etc).

So, thanks, Gamblor. It's always intriguing to have a conversation with an avowed fascist. (And, believe me, I try to choose my words very carefully, always.) As long as one converse safely, as is the case on this forum, and one is in no danger of being decapitated as part of the "conversation", then one can engage in quite an educational process.

By all means, do carry on, Gamblor sir.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Cyrus]

"If you believe the Christians of the Palestinian state won't be the Jews of pretty much everywhere else, then by all means, go ahead and move to Jenin. I hear its beautiful this time of year."

Well, I never thought of that but, yeah, I would go to Jenin, for a couple of days, as a tourist, maybe, if the Israelis were not likely to shoot me dead, as they have with so many westerners that dared go there and spend a few days among the Jews of today, the Palestinian men, women and children, who live in hellholes like Jenin.

Listen. If you believe that sane people in the West will believe your claims and your Rent-An-ExTerrorist's claims that the Palestinians true aim is ...kill the Christians among them, you should go right ahead and join the nearest detox center. I hear it's beautiful this time of the year.

"I never said [for the American taxpayers to] shut up and pay [for Israeli aid], as you so eloquently lied. Dig it up."

By all means, I will -- and here it is. Let the audience decide who's lying and who's not.

Gamblor to Taxpayer : Drop Dead (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=382231&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)

[MMMMMM]

Cyrus: the Europeans, Russians, and Arabs all have long oppressed the Jews. That's what caused all this. The fact that anti-Semitism is still so rampant especially amongst Arabs/Muslims necessitates the existence of Israel.

If those unenlightened humans throughout history (yes, ALL of the people that oppressed the Jews) hadn't oppressed the Jews, and if there weren't so much anti-Semitism today, Israel would not be necessary.

Blame wide swaths of stupid, reactive, crude, unkind people for it. And perhaps blame God or evolution or the universe for not making the average person kinder and smarter.

I am starting to feel a bit like Zeno perhaps. The average human is actually fairly sub-human in the spiritual sense. Not meant mathematically, or as as a conundrum--but rather as an observation over time.

[Gamblor]

if the Israelis were not likely to shoot me dead

Nice rhetoric.

as they have with so many westerners that dared go there and spend a few days among the Jews of today

Even nicer rhetoric.

who live in hellholes like Jenin.

GREAT rhetoric!

So what happened to the billions in EU aid? What weapons, oops, I mean health care and educational infrastructure did that money purchase? Hint: a new flat screen for Arafat's wife in Paris does not count as a "computer" for "educational purposes".

If you believe that sane people in the West will believe your claims and your Rent-An-ExTerrorist's claims that the Palestinians true aim is ...kill the Christians among them, you should go right ahead and join the nearest detox center. I hear it's beautiful this time of the year.

That's the problem - nobody in the West, who have grown up with inalienable rights such as life, liberty, etc. etc. could possibly imagine that sort of scenario. Yet, it is assumed, in Arab nations, that the only inalienable right is to praise Allah.

As far as your link, I'm too lazy - would you care to cut and paste the exact line where I told the American taxpayer "shut up and pay"?

Oh and one more thing - what credentials do you have that tell you that you know more about PLO ideology than a Palestinian and an ex-PLO-member?

Are you ready for Betty Ford? "Saving Families, Saving Cyrus"

[Gamblor]

It's common for the perpetrator of a crime to feel like his crimes were one of two things - either a necessity, or the actions of a past person.

Big surprise that you chose the latter.

The first step is admitting you have a problem.

The one consistent staple of fascist thinking has been the collective guilt heaped upon the "opposing tribes" and their offspring, along with proclamations of the fascist's tribe supremacy over all others (depending on the fascist this can be about "chosen people", or his "pure race", their "noble destiny", the "white man's burdern", etc).

Supremacy carries different meanings for different people.

Supremacy, for Hitler, meant other tribes didn't have a right to exist. Supremacy for you, means the right to twist and scheme and lie in order to further your world view.

Supremacy for Jews means, and I quote the bible on this one, "being a light unto the nations".

Simply put, set an example. But survival precludes that, and Jews ain't survivin' anywhere as a minority. That includes standing up in the face of immoral actions, such as the murder of women and children for the specific purpose of political gain (Waqf land, statehood). Also known as terrorism.

[Cyrus]

I know just how you are feeling.

Jews should be the majority everywhere they want to survive. (How they manage to survive in Albuquerque is fantastic.) And they gotta subdue the minority in all those places into passive acceptance of the Jewish supremacy and inalienable destiny to (how'd ya put it?) to "be a light unto the nations".

Hosannah.

[Cyrus]

Why do you think those inanities you are putting up will cloud the issue of the inherent fascist ideology of your group of fanatics? Just curious.

"Nobody in the West, who have grown up with inalienable rights such as life, liberty, etc. etc. could possibly imagine that sort of scenario [whereby the Palestinians are planning to slaughter the Christians]."

My word! We should intervene and kill the damn towelheads now that they are busy fighting the Jews, what. I say. This is too alarming.

"What credentials do you have that tell you that you know more about PLO ideology than a Palestinian and an ex-PLO-member?"

Well, I don't know about bona fide PLO guys but I certainly know more about the PLO than a born-again Christian that belongs to a cultwhich awaits the Second Coming any day now and supports Israeli occupation of the Holy Land because ..it will speed up that Coming! You can bet your brown shirt I know more about the PLO than that guy.

"In Arab nations, the only inalienable right is to praise Allah."

Really? This is very interesting. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Oh and what credentials do you have that tell you that you can make such an incredible, sweeping statement?

"Would you care to cut and paste the exact line where I told the American taxpayer "shut up and pay"?"

Oh come on, admit that it felt gooood to vent. It felt good to tell off those wiseass Yanks who always complain, complain, complain about their precious little tax dollars buying Israel a few choice weapons to kill its enemies. Whine, whine, whine.

[MMMMMM]

Gamblor: "In Arab nations, the only inalienable right is to praise Allah."
"

Cyrus: "Really? This is very interesting. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Oh and what credentials do you have that tell you "

While I would think Gamblor's remark is an overstatement, it's also probably considerably closer to the truth than most Westerners would imagine.

[Gamblor]

And they gotta subdue the minority in all those places into passive acceptance of the Jewish supremacy and inalienable destiny to (how'd ya put it?) to "be a light unto the nations".

Natch, dose Jews is tryin to take o'er the world, Sah-ris!

Naw, jes' one little itty bitty place.

Hosanna

Okay, then you save me, Cyrus.

[Gamblor]

We should intervene and kill the damn towelheads now that they are busy fighting the Jews, what. I say. This is too alarming.

Naw, just make sure they know they ain't killin us. We prefer to live without blood on our hands. That's called Jewish morality.

Well, I don't know about bona fide PLO guys but I certainly know more about the PLO than a born-again Christian that belongs to a cultwhich awaits the Second Coming any day now and supports Israeli occupation of the Holy Land because ..it will speed up that Coming! You can bet your brown shirt I know more about the PLO than that guy.

I noticed the omission of the fact that he was born in Ramallah, a live witness to the actual Israeli army's first entrance into the West Bank, and a card-carrying PLO'er,for the first 20-odd years of his life.

Oh and what credentials do you have that tell you that you can make such an incredible, sweeping statement?

The direct statement of a man with close family ties to Arafat and who sat around a dinner table with Haj Amin el-Husseini.

Here, I'll sing you one of the PLO-written children's songs he sang for us - you'll have to excuse me, it's been a while... ready? B-flat major:

Grind my bones into swords, may my blood spill all over Allah's land, and Allah will boil the blood of the Jewish enemy

[Cyrus]

"...then you save me, Cyrus"

I can't. Even if it will be just the two of us, you will think you are in the minority.

And you said that Jews don't survive when they are in the minority.

[Gamblor]

don't mean they ain't out to getcha.

I got responses before you've even hit "submit post"

And you said that Jews don't survive when they are in the minority.

Can you think of an extended period of time (say, > 200 years) in which they have?

[jokerswild]

Your "scarcasm" approaches that of Zionist conspiracy anti-Semitism. Frankly, the fact the Jews fought to survive after the holocaust in the face of the Grand Mufti's jihad in 1948 ( a man that was a personal friend of Hitler's) is not surprising. The fact that Palestinians fight to establish a homeland is not surprising either. What is surprising is that the usual anti-Semitic dogma is displayed by someone that should realize that compromise is the only path to progress.

The Israelis should dismantle settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinains should be open to negotiations regarding Jerusalem.

You seem more interested in trading racist accusations than finding common ground.

[John Ho]

So what you're saying is that the Halocaust is going to give Jews free rein to do whatever they want when confronted with a perceived threat? I don't think you'll get many takers with that philosophy. No one doubts the Jews suffered greatly....but history is history. What Germany did does not mean the rest of the world is somehow responsible. The fact that you insist on a jewish majority state means you are giving up on living with other people in harmony. What is a white American politician said we need to make sure America remains a Caucasian majority nation? People would rightly crucify him, including Jews.

[John Ho]

By the way you should eventually realize your religion is just as silly as Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, and the worship of Zeus in addition to countless other world religions past, present, and future. And to continually fight others become some ancient books tell you to live life a certain way while man has advanced so far on his intellect and creativity is just silly in my opinion. This goes to the Arab side as well. Anyone hating the other side because of history and religion is just stupid and naive. And why America involves itself in those politics at the expense of our own safety is beyond me. Embrace a secular government my friend, have the Arabs do the same, and you will all be better for it.

There may be a god out there but if he/she allows people to fight amongst themselves because they keep getting mixed signals on who is in charge of the universe then god is stupid or cruel. Either that or there is a "master plan" that I am not capable of understanding. That's possible too. But either way if I were Jew or Arab I would not be willing to die hoping my one religion out of hundreds of thousands in human history is the right one. The math doesn't support it.

How sad would it be if "god" were actually some kid of an advanced species who just decided to throw a bunch of humans together in his sandbox and see what we would do. I mean, our whole existence could be some kid's science project. How sad would it be to die fighting for this "god" when you could have been out having fun.

[Gamblor]

So what you're saying is that the Halocaust is going to give Jews free rein to do whatever they want when confronted with a perceived threat?

I never said anything close to that. But they have a right like anyone else to defend themselves by a means of their choosing, within accepted moral standards (which, I might add, they established for the world via Judaism, and the subsequent birth of Christianity, which provides the moral structure for Western Civilization).

I don't think you'll get many takers with that philosophy.

Neither do I.

No one doubts the Jews suffered greatly....but history is history.

Sorry buddy, you don't forget 6 million people that easily. That's half the Jews in the world. Imagine if Manhattan were simply blown off the map by Iran. Would the United States simply say, "history is history"? What you haven't quite understood, is that the Holocaust was not an isolated incident, but a build up of European Jew-hatred that began long before the Middle Ages - Google pogroms and blood libel for the tip o' the iceberg. So, you're saying a thousand years is to be forgotten in 50 years of peace and comfort in America?

What Germany did does not mean the rest of the world is somehow responsible.

Agreed. But the blind eye the rest of the world turned until Germany began to expand its borders does make it responsible, as does the thousands of years of trouble in Spain, France, Great Britain, and the Arab world.

The fact that you insist on a jewish majority state means you are giving up on living with other people in harmony.

Not true. It's simply that after the first Aliyah (immigration) of refugees from Russia began in 1882, the local Arabs were virulently anti-Jewish immigration and began to harass and terrorize the immigrants to deter further immigration. It was the Arabs in fact, who rejected Jewish presence in "Palestine" (which had no local authority outside of the British Mandate) and thus the need for a Jewish Majority to prevent further terrorization.

But more importantly, why must all of the Jews in the West Bank be evicted? Why must the Yehuda and Shomron regions be Judenrein? Why can't someone visit Abraham's grave in Hevron in peace? Because he's a Jew.

What is a white American politician said we need to make sure America remains a Caucasian majority nation? People would rightly crucify him, including Jews.

Why would they need to do that? Comparisons like this are irrational, because non-whites are not belligerent towards their white occupiers, and the Caucasians have not had to deal with any serious (and I mean serious) persecution in their lifetimes.

Now, what if the native Spanish in New Mexico, who had rightly been living on their land, suddenly they decided they weren't happy with American/White "occupation" of true Spanish Mexico, began to send gunmen and guys with bombs strapped to their chests into Vegas casinos?

What if they went to the UN to demand the USA pull out of Albuquerque?

[Gamblor]

Believe what you want, nobody can force you to believe anything.

By the way you should eventually realize your religion is just as silly as Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, and the worship of Zeus in addition to countless other world religions past, present, and future.

It's a shame you don't know anything about the evolution of the moral structure by which you (I hope) live your life.

Nope, they ain't silly. And Judaism, the good thing about it (and I think the reason why it has survived) is that it's not a set prescription on how one must live their lives, but rather a set of rules and laws that govern equally man's relationship with God and with other men.

For example, forced conversion is illegal. I never really understood how you forced someone to believe Christ is the lord, but Judaism accepts that some people believe and some don't. In fact, look up B'nei Noach on the internet - non-Jews are not bound by any more than 7 laws, along the lines of "don't kill" and "don't steal".

But either way if I were Jew or Arab I would not be willing to die hoping my one religion out of hundreds of thousands in human history is the right one.

Impossible. Jews are forbidden to act in a way that puts themselves or anyone else in danger, on the rationale that a dead man does no good deeds for his fellow man. Arab Islam is the exact opposite - it is a good deed to die for Allah, and I just don't get why a God would want you dead. The Islamic view of Allah is of a malevolent dictator, and they fear his wrath more than anything else. Jews fear God's wrath, but it's more a father-son relationship.

Religion is a good thing my man. It is man that has corrupted it to fit selfish goals. Modern day Islam, for example, is the result of hundreds of years of poverty in the Mid-east and expansionist Arab Imperialism, beginning in Saudi Arabia, and has expanded to North Africa all the way to Morocco, and the Far east all the way to Malaysia. That's imperialism.

[Cyrus]

"Your "scarcasm" approaches that of Zionist conspiracy anti-Semitism."

I'm sorry but I didn't know that conspiracy theorists could be sarcastic. I thought they were too dour for sarcasm. But thanks for the warning. It's an interesting angle.

"The Jews fought to survive after the holocaust in the face of the Grand Mufti's jihad in 1948."

We have somewhat moved on, you should know, beyond that paleolithic viewpoint of History. In summary: The Israelis have never been in any danger whatsoever militarily. They have always been militarily stronger than all the Arab frontline nations combined.

"The usual anti-Semitic dogma is displayed by someone that should realize that compromise is the only path to progress."

Are you referring to moi? I'm 100% for compromise. Either you haven't been reading my posts on the subject (and why should you) or you have completely misunderstood my position. For the record, I'm all for a genuine and mutually painful compromise.

"The Israelis should dismantle settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinains should be open to negotiations regarding Jerusalem."

I'm bolder than that! I'm for one state, undivided under the sun, free for all those who wish to inhabit it, secular and peaceful. A state that someone would be able to go fight for it and give his life for it - like a bunch of American individuals did in the 1930s to defend republican Spain.

Would you say that Israel could inspire today a non-Jewish person to shed his blood in defending it the way people from all over the world rushed to defend Spain from Franco and fascism? Israel should have been such a state.

--Cyrus

[Gamblor]

I'm for one state, undivided under the sun, free for all those who wish to inhabit it, secular and peaceful.

When synagogues stop blowing up and getting desecrated, when Jewish reporters' throats stop magically slicing open,on TV, no less, when I stop hearing David Duke and Ernst Zundel, when muftis and caliphs stop calling for Jewish blood, when European polls do not show a staggering 9% who don't "trust or like" Jews, and when you (yes, you!) stop finding more fault with one nation than any other on earth, so will I.

[MMMMMM]

Well, if you ask that the Israelis share one state "free for all who wish to inhabit it, secular and peaceful", then to be fair you must ask the same of the Arabs: not only the Palestinians, but also the neighboring states of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. They too must become "secular and free to all who wish to inhabit them". Think they'll go for that, Cyrus?

P.S. And don't Arabs have more rights in Israel than Jews have in the neighboring Arab countries? So...what's with the double-standard anyway?

[daveymck]

On the otherside the Isrealies need to stop shooting boys throwing stones, bulldozing house etc etc. Its one conflict that I can see no end too both sides are too bogged down in their positions and the endless tit for tat killing that goes on over there is to be honest pointless.

There are two elements of the struggle over there I dont understand, and I have no knowledge of the history and background of the conflict there.

1 Why Isreal doesnt say heres our boundries settlers come and live back in the boundries create a palastinain country and be done with it. Or is it more complex is the land the palestinians want worth more, ie better at producing crops or whatever else?

2 Why Jewish settlers want to settle in palestinian lands where you have to fortify your settlement, have potential gunman coming into your house and killing you and all your family, or if your children stray from the settlement they could be killed as well, or again are there some resource issues or somthing? I can understand the everyone should be able to live where they want but why put your family at such risk?

[Gamblor]

Hundreds of reasons, but the most important are:

1) Suppose the Palestinian State were to be created tomorrow. Tel Aviv, the largest and most cosmopolitan of Israeli cities, is about 12 km from Kalkilya, a town with a strong terrorist base. 12 km. A Palestinian state with ANY unmonitored military capability, including 10 lbs of explosives, is a very dangerous thing indeed for citizens of Tel Aviv, and virtually every other city. This fight began long before there even was a state of Israel - it began with Jewish immigration, which the Arabs most certainly did not want after Arab imperialism created a pan-Arabian continent from Morocco to Malaysia.

2) The Jews who want the right, not necessarily the exclusive right, to live near the religiously significant grave sites of those they have called heros for the last 2000 years (i.e. Joseph and Abraham), would most certainly be ethnically cleansed by the Arab state, as they were from the other 22 Arab states upon the creation of the State of Israel. Why should the West Bank be Judenrein? Arabs live peacefully and equally in Israel. But Jews do not live in those conditions anywhere else.

3) Resources have nothing to do with this barren landscape. Most of Israel's natural resources are in the north, in the Galilee. As far as the value of the Arab land, it was quite literally a dump before Israel cultivated it. All universities and medical institutions were built and paid for by the Israelis, and all farming communities were subsidized by Israel before the intifada. The markets were open to "cross-border" shoppers before the intifada as well.

You want to know the way this really works?

Let's work backwards.

1) A Palestinian Arab blows himself up using a bomb filled with shards of metal (today, for example), while boarding a bus in Jerusalem.

2) Why? Because the Israeli army went into Gaza City yesterday and 9 Arabs died.

3) Why did they die? The IDF was in Gaza looking to arrest the planners of a "terror attack", known in the Western world as "murder". Someone walks into a NY bar, shoots someone in the chest, that's called murder, right? So the IDF goes in to make an arrest, and is met with resistance. Certainly the Arabs have a right to defend themselves against intruders. But the IDF has orders to arrest the perpetrator of a previous murder, and to allow the secular Israeli judicial system to decide. But the Arabs shout "occupation" and "state terrorist" and the world believes them.

4) Why did the first murder occur? Jews living on "Arab" land. Not just the West Bank and Gaza, the whole thing is Arab land. That's right. Racism.

[daveymck]

Working backwards to see who started it isnt constructive surely to the going forward and resolving the problems, both sides are in the cycle of violence and both sides have done bad things, who hit who first surely isnt the important thing.

The issues there are very much like Ireland there is inbred hatred on both sides, tit for tat killings on both sides some people who wont even sit in the same room as people form the other side and everyone looks back x number of years to see who started it.

In Ireland the toubles have died down a bit but there is still institutionalized religious prejiduce and daily attacks on peoples homes etc.

I dont see an end to the troubles in either regions in our lifetime, but what is more worrying is that the Isreal/Palestine issue has a greater effect on stability in the region and ultimatley world security.

[Gamblor]

cycle of violence

Ain't no such thing.

Bomb. Arrest and trial. End.

Don't dehumanize the situation. People are making rational decisions to murder bus-riders and diners. Other people are making rational decisions to attempt to arrest them and deter that behaviour.

There's no difference, in this day and age, between the IDF and any civilian police force. Israeli forces DO NOT FIRE UNTIL FIRED UPON.

You don't call a crime boss's murders, subsequent arrest trial and incarceration a cycle of violence, do you?

[Cyrus]

How did those Arabs die, yavroum?? There's some text missing from your post.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Did they kill each other? Were they down with the flu? Did they drop dead from joy upon seeing the tanks come to visit? Goddamn strangest thing ever.

[RollaJ]

Id ask the following:
"While we at Betar (Yerushalayim /images/graemlins/grin.gif) appreciate your support. Id like to know why do you feel so strongly in the Israeli's right of return over the Palestinian's right of return?"

[Gamblor]

No.

They died in a shootout with Israeli forces because they didn't like the idea of a policeman arresting their criminal buddies, you know, the ones who pack metal bolts and nails into bombs and then detonate them as close as possible to someone enjoying their felafel with chumos.

God forbid a murderer should be brought to trial.

[Gamblor]

I can only speculate, but I'd imagine he'd say something like...

"The Jewish right of return is not colonial, in that when Jews are in charge, Muslims, Arabs, Christians, everyone can live in peace (for example, that Muslims may pray at the Haram al-Sharif is because Israel allows them to). When Arabs are in charge, Jews are subjugated and treated like animals."

He explained in great detail what it was like immediately after the 6-day war, when the Israeli tanks first rolled in - the troops were shouting "Salaam, salaam!" and handing out pita. The Arab market and Jewish markets experienced an influx of business from the other side. He claimed the occupation was the best thing to ever happen to the Arabs - until Arafat decided he wanted to be a hero.

[daveymck]

delted cos of drunk and duplicate

[daveymck]

M8 and i will call you mate (I am not anti semetic or pro arabic to be honest in many ways I dont really care), you put forward one side of the view of this conflict with intelligence and with passion but it is a completly one sided view of what you admit yourself is a complex issue.

In all my posting all I would have liked you to have said is yes both sides are if not as bad as each other then both have made mistakes and use violence inappropriately, every time you have come out with pro Isreal retoric.

As I have said I know nothing about the isreal conflict you have read a lot and quote a lot, but I ask you how many real palestinian arabs have you met, how many have you sat down with and discussed with the rhetoric you have come out with on this board (even in the last few weeks I havent read back).

I know which side you are on but I would really like to understand your feelings on how this conflict can be resolved and resolved in a way that both sides can agree too.

[Gamblor]

Both sides use violence inappropriately

Agreed.

But I maintain, I was a chayal, and served in the Territories, having seen Jenin in person that the Israelis are far more interested in peace. Obviously I am biased, but I have seen both sides up close. I have been spit on, had rocks thrown at my vehicle, and while I can't say for sure if I have been fired upon, I do know the extent to which Zahal soldiers are morally and ethically trained to deal with human beings who are unarmed is far greater than you'd ever suspect. Before we were even issued arms, we completed 36 hours of sessions with subjects like "purity of arms" concerning the moral implications of even holding a rifle. Each soldier carries a little card on his person with a list of what Americans call the rules of engagement, with reminders such as no firing upon non-threatening combatants, no firing blind around corners, etc. Trust me, the amount of training is far greater than the "shoot at anything that moves" mentality of the armed civilians in these towns.

The Zahal is the first communal self-defense organization the Jewish people have had after 1500 years of hell. I can assure you that job is taken very seriously.

The only thing you have to consider is how long an Arab standing in the middle of Tel Aviv/Yafo would last vs. how long a Jew standing in the middle of Jenin would last.

Nothing else in the moral argument matters, IMO.

In terms of negotiations, the suicide bomber this morning in Jerusalem was a Palestinian security force officer, paid and controlled by Arafat himself. Now they want Sharon to negotiate with this guy?

The solution is simple: Teach, somehow, Palestinian children that Jews are not dogs and monkeys, that they do not drink Muslim blood, etc. etc. Teach them that they are human beings like Muslims are.

I promise you that will end the whole thing.

[Cyrus]

"God forbid a murderer should be brought to trial."

Yeah, the Israeli Army would be gutted.

[Cyrus]

"I have been spit on, had rocks thrown at my vehicle.."

Tsk tsk tsk. What a terrible inconvenience! (I can imagine what happens when you're getting bumped by another car on the road. Whewwww-ee.)

"The suicide bomber this morning in Jerusalem was a Palestinian security force officer, paid and controlled by Arafat himself."

Yeah, Arafat is sending out those suicide bombers, right. Tell us another one.

"The solution is simple: Teach, somehow, Palestinian children that Jews are not dogs and monkeys, that they do not drink Muslim blood. Teach them that they are human beings like Muslims are."

That's not the solution. The solution is simple: Teach, somehow, yourselves that Palestinian children are not taught that Jews are dogs and monkeys or that they drink Muslim blood. Those children are human beings like Jews are.

But the lying is understandable. You need to de-humanize that child, make it like a Nazi in your mind, in order to be able to pull that trigger on it.

[Gamblor]

never seen one o' dem, have you?

[Cyrus]

"You ain't done. Never seen one o' dem [Palestinian children], have you?"

I fully understand where you're coming from, don't worry. The killing of a child (a rock-throwing, impertinent, resisting child) is justified a thousand ways in the mind of the killer - the reasoning ranging from the pedestrian ("Look at the hatred in their eyes") to the abstract/historical ("We are building Great Israel. We must kill that child so that Jewish children never get killed again").

You and your folks, from the IDF "special units" to the brown-shirted "organisations", are sleeping well at night, I have no doubt.

[MMMMMM]

Cyrus:

Arafat champions the martyrdom of Palestinian children. Watch the videos in the other thread.