Take the free card?

[Philuva]

Fairly loose online $20-$40 game.

UTG+1 is fairly loose with his open raising, 66, KJs, ATo, etc. He can also be tricky after the flop.

UTG+1 open raises. I 3-bet in MP with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Folded to SB, who is a very loose passive player who calls. BB calls and UTG+1 calls.

4 to the flop with 18 small bets.

FLOP is T /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me. I bet. SB calls. BB folds. UTG+1 calls. 3 to the turn with 21 small bets.

TURN is 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Checked to me. Check or bet?

[SevenStuda]

You've gotta bet for value, you're drawing to the nut flush and an inside strait.

[Softrock]

He's also likely to have another 6 outs to an A or a Q. Twelve outs to the nuts and as many as 6 more.

[OrangeHeat]

I would bet, You have the flush draw plus the inside draw to the gr8 str8. Without the added bonus of the str8 draw I would check. Then when then if the river hits you may be able to get multiple bets out of UTG+1 when he bets thinking you wiffed.

With your outs (13 - 10 flush 3 kings - I wouldn't count your Ace as a clean out btw AK is a possibility) I bet. Your about 2.5 to 1 to hit if my math isn't screwy so if they both call it's not horrible and if there is a slight chance they both fold it's great.

Orange

[JayKon]

I'm leaning towards betting the turn. It depends though. Basically, I'm setting myself up to bluff the river if I miss.

However, if I think someone has a pair of J's, or T's I'm going to check the turn and hope I catch. If its checked to me on the river, I'm probably going to bet anyway. If I'm called, I don't care. If raised, then I've got a decision and will probably fold.

[Jason Strasser]

Although I am in the minority, I would certainly take the free card in this case. It is very likely that you are beat at this moment, and you need to improve to win. If you check and miss, you can get out of the hand without further damage.

Sure you have a ton of outs, but the pot is too big for one of the enemies to be bluffed out if the river is a blank. I would take advantage of their "mathematical catastrophy" (if indeed they hit the board, or have a pocket pair), and take the free card. If you hit the flush, an over card, or the straight, they are still likely to pay you off.

[Garland]

Betting on the come has tremendous deceptive value if you do indeed hit and it makes a good (but obviously, lesser) hand for your opponents. For example, 2 pair or 7 for the straight. You may get some action from people who wouldn't believe you would bet without having the goods already.

That said, I wouldn't take this concept too far as when the field thinned to 3, you're not betting for value anymore, but it's something to pull out of your hat once in while to mix up your game.

Garland

[GuyOnTilt]

Unless these 3 opponents had a habit of calling a single bet on the flop with nothing, I'm taking the free card here. Your 12-outer only has value is all 3 of them call, so forget that. If your overs are good some of the time, then you MIGHT be getting value with 2 callers, so that's not a good enough reason to bet here either. If you think it'll clean up your outs, then go for it, but against opponents loose enough to call your 3-bet PF out of position without great hands, my guess is that they're seeing the river with a hand like middle pair/A-kicker. The only solid reason for betting here is to increase your implied action when you do hit, but I don't think that's a enough to warrant losing money on this street with a bet that has negative EV if not called in all 3 places.

I vote for checking, but then again, I'm not the most pokerest of pokerers.

GoT

[DocHollyday]

I'd also check, despite your outs. But I may join the minority with that opionion. I just don't like it too much to bet draws, which may end up myself holding nothing.

Additionally, if you check and hit your nut flush, you showed weakness on the turn, which may make one of your opponents betting straight into your nuts.

I vote for the free card!

[Ed Miller]

Pot big. Want to win. I bet.

[spamuell]

Pot big. Want to win. I bet.

Yes, but SB is described as loose-passive, and the other players hardly seem concerned about putting in many bets. It doesn't seem likely that this hand will be won without a showdown, and although a bet *might* clear up the ace outs, for this to be the case, someone would already have to have one pair-ace kicker (which they would likely have bet), and would have to fold for this hand for one bet on the turn(and the players described here don't seem likely to do that). And even if this does happen, this means there are only 2 aces left in the deck, so it's pretty unlikely that one will fall on the river.

Also, if you check and make the nuts, someone is likely to bet into you, giving you the chance to raise, so you probably get your 2 bets in if you hit, while getting in 0 bets if you miss. Whereas if you bet the turn, they'll probably check to you on the river so you get in 1 bet if you miss, and 2 bets if you hit.

And what about the check with outs, bet with no outs principle in HEPFAP? And there's the possibility of getting check-raised on the turn, eliminating some potential callers if you do make your hand on the river, and forcing you to put in more bets with just a draw. All this seems to suggest that checking is better than betting.

Incidentally, I've been meaning to ask you this but haven't had the chance to reply to one of your posts until now, why did you change your display name to your real name?

[samdash]

I think it is obvious that you should keep firing on the turn here. You may have as many as 17 outs so if 2 people call you you're roughly even money. Basically if you ever win the pot outright on the turn the bet is worth it. If you check here and then totally miss you could lose to someone who rivers a small pair. Bet.

[Ed Miller]

This is too much talking for what I think is an easy decision.

The pot is large and you have a huge draw on the turn. Since you are going to improve to the best hand so often, your bet need only increase your chance of winning the pot slightly for it to be correct. If you occasionally get one of these chuckleheads to fold, your bet's job is done.

And what about the check with outs, bet with no outs principle in HEPFAP?

This principle does not apply here, IMO. Your draw is too big. The point of checking behind is if you would be very unhappy if you got check-raised. Here getting check-raised is no big deal because you have so many outs. That principle is most applicable to 4 to 6 out hands.

I don't think this is close... I think checking is just plain wrong. If the pot were smaller, then it might be ok.

EDIT: Besides, what happens when you miss and Mister Tricky bets into you on the river? You are going to be caught between the calling station and someone who might be bluffing. The pot is big, so you can't necessarily just lay down. Because of the size of the pot, you may be forced to RAISE that bet on the river.

In other words, your whole post was centered on saving bets. When the pot is big, that should not be your concern.

[spamuell]

OK, I see that betting is right here, because if they both call, you're probably making money on your bet (depending how many outs you have), if they both fold that is good, and if one of them folds, you've significantly increased your chances of winning the pot. And even if you're check-raised, it isn't too bad. I sort of had the idea that there were three opponents, I think someone mentioned that, but I realise that there are only two, significantly increasing your chances of winning the pot here.

What do you do though, if you bet and are called, and then the tricky player bets into you on the river? What if the SB bets into you? (I'm not saying that these are reasons not to bet, I'm just wondering what your plan of action would be).

[Philuva]

I checked the turn. I would usually bet this turn 95% of the time, but chekced it here b/c loose passive in the SB had been calling me down with any pair, usually a pair though, I had not seen him call me down with other hands. So I felt there was a good chance I was behind and needed to improve. Add on top of that the tricky UTG+1 who could CR and I thought it was an easy check.

I agree now with Ed and that this is an easy bet. The pot is large and regardless, SB has only called one bet. IF he called my bet again on the turn, I would probably check the river unimproved as he is not folding a better hand, but I should definitely bet the turn.

Anyway, I checked the turn.

The river was 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif for a final board of:

T /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

It was checked to me and I checked the river.

SB had A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the turned gutshot straight draw. UTG+1 had K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif for the flopped straight draw.

The results made me realize how awful the turn check really was, but I wanted to make sure I just wasn't being results oriented.

Thanks for all the responses.

[samdash]

If you miss and are bet into on the river out of no where this is probably an easy fold.