Identifying leaks in loose mid-limit games...comments welcome

[Garland]

Hello all,

While I'm on my losing streak, I guess it's a good time to reflect on possible leaks in my game. If I'm playing a $9/$18 or $6/$12 or $10/$20 game with a bunch of loose customers, I guess my biggest concern is what to do with UTG.

AJo or even AQo - Is it worth a play? How high does a pair have to be to be playable...and at which pair do I start raising? 9s 10s? Currently I limp with 77, 88 and perhaps 99. But I definitely start raising with 10s. I wonder what other thoughts are. I have a hard time throwing pocket pairs away UTG or UTG+1 except for 22->66.

What about UTG AJs and A10s? Playable or not?

Also, at what point do KJo become playable/raisable?

What about A9o, A8o in late position? I almost always throw these away except on the button perhaps when I'm partially vested ($3 on the button). I heard that A8s -> A9s are playable when you're dealing with "any A customers".

Also in the small blind when you have half a bet in. I find the siren's call far too loud and call far too often with Axo. I guess I can see a reason to call Axs if there are enough people in. But then I'd like to hear other's requirements in SB as I think I call far too often with mid-connectors, suited 1-gapped such as 108s or J9s, etc. I'm starting to think that this is a spot where only a pocket pair or two high cards (face/ace) should call.

If the blind is raised once from an open raiser who does not steal, what would be the requirements to call such a bet from big blind? I called with J8o once because of many callers and ended up making the nut straight once, but I don't know if it's a long term winner. I guess this is also contingent on how much is already in the pot.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this matter as it's a very important topic for me to grow as a player.

Thanks in advance.

Garland

[Ulysses]

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If I'm playing a $9/$18 or $6/$12 or $10/$20 game

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I noticed you play at AJs and LC. I put in a ton of hours in that AJs 6-12 (an incredibly good game) and a few at the LC 9-18 (pretty much as good), so I know exactly how loose these games are.

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AJo

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If there's a lot of raising going on in the game, I muck it. If it's limpfest, I limp, fold, or raise w/ this hand UTG depending on how I feel. I don't think it matters all that much. But in an aggressive game, muck this UTG.

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AQo

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In these games I'd almost always raise AQo UTG.

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How high does a pair have to be to be playable

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In most of these games, I'll play any pair UTG. I'll usually raise right about 9s. Sometimes 8s and 7s. If the game is aggressive and usually gets 3 or 4-way, I'll muck the small pairs. But often when the game is aggressive you'll still get 7-way action, so you're usually fine to limp in with the small pairs.


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What about UTG AJs and A10s? Playable or not?

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Definitely playable. I sometimes limp, sometimes raise w/ these.

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Also, at what point do KJo become playable/raisable?

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I don't like KJo until pretty late position where I'll open-raise w/ it. Otherwise, into the muck.

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What about A9o, A8o in late position?

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In CO, open-raising w/ these is fine. Otherwise, straight to the muck. Always mucking them is perfectly fine as well.

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heard that A8s -> A9s are playable when you're dealing with "any A customers".

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In many of these games I'll play just about any suited Ace.

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Also in the small blind when you have half a bet in. I find the siren's call far too loud and call far too often with Axo.

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I'd always fold rag Aces in the small blind. I probably play too tight in the small blind, but if I wouldn't open w/ it I usually fold it in the small blind. But that probably comes from hanging out w/ Tommy too much.

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I think I call far too often with mid-connectors, suited 1-gapped such as 108s or J9s, etc.

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Unraised pots w/ multi-way action, definitely call w/ this stuff in the SB.

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If the blind is raised once from an open raiser who does not steal, what would be the requirements to call such a bet from big blind?

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From a non-stealer, pocket pairs, suited broadway, decent suited Aces, etc. Good hands.

[glen]

While Ulysses answered your UTG concerns very well, it struck me that this is, in general, your beggest concern. I doubt how you play these hands UTG is what may be the leak that may be causing the losing streak. I would think examining post flop situations would be more beneficial. ..

[Garland]

Thanks Glen ,

While I'm concerned about all aspects of the game. My point of concern now is cleaning up my preflop decisions. If there is a sticky situation I encounter post-flop, I post it here. I think for the most part, my post flop decisions are solid. I get good reads and information from the actions, reactions, bets and reraises of the players. It just sucks to get sucked out on 10 times in a row...

Garland

[sweetzer]

I've played quite often in the 15-30 at AJ's. I really like your guidelines stated above, including almost any pair in a loose passive game. One question not answered is what are your quidelines for ATo. I usually don't play in early position, but if first to act in middle position I raise. I will call a limper with this in mid-late position.

[mikelow]

Worth printing out. It will be my online cheatsheet. Maybe it will help me with the times I sneak into the Commerce with it. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Ulysses]

That's sounds good. I consider ATo and AJo pretty much the same hand.

[J.A.Sucker]

I agree with all of Ulysses' guidelines and comments. However, I play even tighter than he does in the SB, and I won't play hands like Axo from the SB, unless it's for 1 chip from in 15-30. In the 6/12 games play verrry tight in the SB, because the blind is only 1 chip, I use the same guidelines as for UTG (this applies to 9/18, too IIRC).

I won't muck a small pair up front ever in those games, unless Ulysses just bought an order of lumpia and it's sitting there, piping hot, accross the poker room for me to mooch off of.

Also, in the 6/12 and 9/18 games, play much looser on the button. This is more true at 6/12 than 9/18, where you should play just about any hand (2 gappers unsuited, any 2 suited cards) except for the truly terrible, for 1 bet, since you get such high implied odds and have such a good position throughout the hand. Note: this applies only for the games where the 3 dollar drop is live in your hand. I have made a post about this somewhere before, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

As for ATo, it's a pretty trashy hand, and if you never played it except in the CO or button, you'd probably not do yourself much of a disservice in these games. It can be played, but you need to tread carefully. With AJo, this isn't as true.

I always raise AQo UTG in these games (and I can't think of any games where this isn't the case).

[J.A.Sucker]

I suspect that glen is right on the money. However, preflop is really easy to get pretty much correct, so it's a good place to start. There really aren't many tricky decisions preflop, since you can really play by rote (usually, in a full game).

If you are losing a lot in these games and are playing like Ulysses and others suggest preflop, then I suspect that you are making some pretty horrendous plays after the flop. My basic rules of thumb are the following:

1. Don't try to save a bet/make a bet. Try to save the pot. The pots are usually quite large and to win them with a higher percentage than others, you need to take (sometimes) drastic measures to clear out the field. This may include firing out seemingly ill-advised bets/raises.

2. Don't lay down anything on the river for 1 bet, unless it's a complete bust (A hi isn't necessarily a bust). If you had a flush draw and hit second pair on the river, you should call (or raise).

3. Play tight up front, loose in the rear (that sounds filthy, sorry /images/graemlins/blush.gif). Hold em is a game of buttons and big cards.

4. When in doubt, bet - they may fold. Ironically, the main mistakes that people make in these games is that they play too many hands when they shouldn't (preflop) and fold when they should call or raise (after the flop). The pots are usually large enough on the flop that a call of 1 bet is at least "close" with some amazingly bad hands in a loose game. There have been many instances of this posted on this board. Same thing on the river. It never ceases to amaze me how many people can put in 2 or 3 bets preflop and then fold for a single bet on the flop when it's 5 way action. There aren't too many hands when this is the case in a multiway pot.