100-200 stars KJs. . .

[glen]

So I jumped into the 100-200 because it looked pretty good. 2 other 2+2ers were in the game. As a result of two weak-loose players, there have been a few multiway pots (5-7 handed) unraised, but also a fair amount of coldcalling - not the more common fold or 3 bet that is more characteristic of the 30 games.) In any case, say you are utg+1. UTG, who is a good player, limps, and you have KJs. Who calls and who raises and does it really make a difference?

[Franchise (TTT)]

I fold, and it makes a huge difference.

[Glenn]

If you don't play this hand, you might as well just drop your antes off at the door and go do something else for a few hours.

[Franchise (TTT)]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG, who is a good player, limps

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite your dismissive and oh-so-clever response, I'll post a useful reply.

How many hands could he be limping with that have you dominated, and how many hands could he be limping with that you have dominated (or would be at least decently matched up against)?

How often is it when you have five more people to act behind you that you're going to wish you didn't limp when it gets all the way around?

Add up these two factors, and I think folding is best. Especially against a good 100/200 player.

[glen]

"How many hands could he be limping with that have you dominated, and how many hands could he be limping with that you have dominated (or would be at least decently matched up against)?"


What kind of hands would you think a good player would limp with in this kind of game that dominate me?

Also, I think we should distinguish good poker player from good "100-200" player, since a lot of middle limit players play better than some of the 1-2 crowd. Sure, a lot of them are solid, but some couldn't beat a 10-20 game, imo. Most of the players are 30-60 regulars who play 1-2 when it goes. . .

[Gabe]

I think calling is best here. The rest of the hand will usually be much easier to play.

[SoBeDude]

I'd raise.

[Ed Miller]

You can't answer this question without knowing what the players in the blinds play like. Are they tight? Do they play poorly after the flop? etc.

[Franchise (TTT)]

AJ, KQ dominate you. Middle pairs don't. The occasional AKs, AQs, AJs spell trouble as well.

What else do good players limp with UTG?

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't play this hand, you might as well just drop your antes off at the door and go do something else for a few hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I play this limit regularly and nobody plays that tight. Odds are that the initial limper has a small pair (88 or lower) or maybe JTs or so. I would raise here, but I can see calling as an option. But KJs is too strong a hand to fold. If you can't play KJs profitably, then you shouldn't be in the game. Find an easier game.

And as for being dominated, no good player will limp in early position with AK, KQ, or AJ (they'd certainly raise). Most would raise UTG w/ big pairs, especially if the game is normal and he can expect one or two of the live ones to give him action. But it is possible to encounter an early limper with AA or KK. But if you run around fearing AA or KK everytime you have a good hand, then you're better off playing blackjack.

[Franchise (TTT)]

[ QUOTE ]

And as for being dominated, no good player will limp in early position with AK, KQ, or AJ (they'd certainly raise). Most would raise UTG w/ big pairs, especially if the game is normal and he can expect one or two of the live ones to give him action. But it is possible to encounter an early limper with AA or KK. But if you run around fearing AA or KK everytime you have a good hand, then you're better off playing blackjack.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like how everyone's telling me to go play a lower limit because I don't think this hand is worth a play in this situation. That's a wonderful way to argue the merits of the hand. Especially since you know nothing about me.

No good player wouldn't raise KQ or AJ UTG? He wouldn't limp-reraise with AA-QQ (or at least consider it)? Do we have the same definition of "good player"?

[andyfox]

By "the rest of the hand will usually be much easier to play," I assume you mean easier to play if you call rather than raise. If this reading is correct, how so?

Thanks,
Andy

[Brian]

Hi TTT,

Assuming limping will get him a large multi-way pot, which is what I infer from reading

[ QUOTE ]
there have been a few multiway pots (5-7 handed) unraised, but also a fair amount of coldcalling

[/ QUOTE ]

then being dominated on one side is not such a big deal. Obviously KJs doesn't play well against KQ heads-up, but in a 5 or 6 way pot, it really isn't a big problem. Suited broadway connectors play well in multiway pots, period. Now if he might be limping with KK, then thats another story... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian

[Paluka]

I was the UTG limper. I can't tell you if raising me is right or not, that would be bad for me.

[sweetzer]

I relate to the "easier to play" concept here. KJ would be a clear fold here if it wasn't suited. Suited you are looking for multiway pots, and two limpers will often engender several more. If someone raises behind you, you have a better idea of your high card strength or lack of it. With so many left to act, I prefer a call.

[SoBeDude]

well what are your UTG limping standards in the game?

-Scott

[andyfox]

I agree that two limpers will often engender more. To me, this makes the hand tougher to play with more players behind you. And I'm not quite sure how a raise behind you defines your high card strength. Is someone going to raise with A-J or K-Q behind several limpers? Or are they more likely to raise with 8-8 or A-xs, hands that they would likely fold if you raised in front of them? With so many left to act, I prefer a raise or a fold to a call.

[ZeeJustin]

Woah, that was confusing. glen asks a question. TTT answers it. Glenn bashes TTT for his answer. I think one of you glenns need to change your name.

Anyway, if you can expect 4-5 people to the flop, I would definately play the hand. This seems very likely since you have seen 7 handed unraised pots.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
well what are your UTG limping standards in the game?

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not just going to outline my limping standards for you.
This hand Glen caught me with a very rare limp with 89s. I was trying to get involved multiway with the weaker players in the game. I do this pretty rarely, Glen had great timing.
We both got punished on this hand, me especially. One of the blinds had QQ and after a 89J flop a T came on the turn. Sweet.

[J_V]

You were the limper? Then glen should have clarified by saying, "clueless fish, limps first in." /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
You were the limper? Then glen should have clarified by saying, "clueless fish, limps first in." /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel that way to be honest. I won $12,000 on January 2nd. I think that was my last winning day.

[J_V]

Shouldn't you be trading?

Oh yeah, by the way, next time you decided to tilt it off w/ 46s, make sure I'm not on the receiving end of the straight flush.

Hope things turn around. Games can't be too bad when you have WPT wannabe's like glen playing everday.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't you be trading?

Oh yeah, by the way, next time you decided to tilt it off w/ 46s, make sure I'm not on the receiving end of the straight flush.

Hope things turn around. Games can't be too bad when you have WPT wannabe's like glen playing everday.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was the bb that hand, the hand where I tilted with 46s came much later...

[bad beetz]

You don't want coldcallers behind you with shitty position. Limp, but yes, the hand probably has money in it and don't throw it away.

[Boris]

The game is passive. Limp.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't you be trading?



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trading it up. Not so busy today, though,

[mike l.]

"say you are utg+1. UTG, who is a good player, limps, and you have KJs. Who calls and who raises and does it really make a difference?"

you should be folding so to answer your question, yes, it makes a big difference.

[nykenny]

Andy,

it's nice to have finally met you last week face to face. Too bad we didn't get to play on the same table. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

anyway, onto the discussion. i believe call is best option here. raise being 2nd and fold being third. i will raise if i sense many will fold behind me (hopefully all) and the limper is bad and the blinds are tight. otherwise i call. i will only fold when i think most people behind me play better than me and i feel it will get raised behind me.

Kenny

[glen]

"Hope things turn around. Games can't be too bad when you have WPT wannabe's like glen playing everday."

Your way off here. I have no wpt aspirations, I'm just trying to get more sets of stars fpp chips. . .

[Boris]

What's your handle?

[sweetzer]

Somewhere in the poker lit is a "two limpers rule", which I think has some validity. In general once there are two limpers in, I think many players, myself included, would be more reluctant to raise with 88, Axs, or KQ, unless they were in late position. They would still raise with the premium hands. Folding Axs of course would be very desirable if you hold KJs of that suit. Otherwise, once someone is already in the pot and you can't steal the blinds, try to get in cheap for a hand that plays best in a multiway pot, and if there is a stronger K behind you, he probably will expose himself.

[glen]

If I do get it heads-up, and the flop comes all rags, would you rather be UTG with KQs or me with KJs?

[J_V]

You, cuz you get all the girls.

[Legend27]

It makes a big difference. If you raise then most likely you get 1 cold caller or none and then probably get 1 caller out of the blinds. It's safe to assume that utg has your hand beat unless he limps utg w/ qjs and jts so I don't think raising is the best thing to do but certainly isn't the wrong thing to do. I'd rather call and have a multi-way pot and play it from there. Easier to play it that way too.

[glen]

Ok. I guess my description as a good player was somewhat vague. Since Paluka revealed himself as the utg limper, I will say this. He was stuck a bit, and he almost never open limps when i play with him. The only other time he tried to open limp when i was playing with him was in a party 30-60 game, i raised him with QQ. The flop was T 9 2 with two clubs, turn paired the 2, he check-raised me, and I was then presented with one of the easiest poker decision I've ever made in my life - 3 bet. Unfortunately, he spiked an ace on the river, because he is a natural lucksack, and he showed his Ac4c. In any case, the point is I don't see why he would get fancy and try to limp reraise a big hand in this game, and he would raise the better half of what people seem to think his range for limping utg would be. So, I figured he something like a mid pair below 88 or QJs down to mid suited connectors.

I raised because I had a tight image (I play with a lot of the players in the 30) and only shown down big hands thus far. Also, Paluka is going to give me credit for a big hand when I do this, and the fact that he was shocked when I raised him that light verifies this. So, I tried to get it heads up if possible, thinking it would probably be 2-3 handed. I didn't want a coldcaller, but I would rather get coldcalled than to overlimp and get raised.

In this context, all this talk about Paluka likely having me dominated doesn't really matter as much as everyone is making it out to be, since I have position and he puts me on a big hand and that is worth a lot.

Also, I definitely think you have to play this hand,and I play really tight. The decision to raise was based more on my read of Paluka's range of hands and my table image.

[glen]

"No good player wouldn't raise KQ or AJ UTG? He wouldn't limp-reraise with AA-QQ (or at least consider it)? Do we have the same definition of "good player"?"

I just knew he wouldn't do either of these, not that good players don't in general. . . I think the limp-reraise is more common online than limping in with KQ or AJ, but this wasn't the game to go for a limp reraise. . . I see very, very few good online players limping with AJ and KQ, etc. utg. . .

[glen]

"I agree that two limpers will often engender more. To me, this makes the hand tougher to play with more players behind you. And I'm not quite sure how a raise behind you defines your high card strength. Is someone going to raise with A-J or K-Q behind several limpers? Or are they more likely to raise with 8-8 or A-xs, hands that they would likely fold if you raised in front of them? With so many left to act, I prefer a raise or a fold to a call."

I also think the hand will be, in general, easier to play if I raise, taking into account the times that I will get people behind me fold who would have otherwise called.

[Rushmore]

There are no fewer than three (and prolly a few more) regular (or at least recently regular) players in this game who believe that K7 suited and 22 are worth cold-calling 2 bets cold from LP after a MP raise from a solid player.

The presence of this handful of players changes the game drastically. The sort of play described above adds to the value of both your dominating premium hands (esp. IN POSITION) and your drawing hands, and calls for adjustments in play that might look, on the surface, to be erratic.

In the last couple of days, in particular, I have seen one seemingly wacky play after another. This naturally coincides with the recent introduction of new meat into the game.

These newer players are altering the game. I don't know that they have changed it to the degree that 89 suited looks like a limp from utg, but that's just my opinion.

Another important difference here is that there a LOT of players "jumping into" or "taking a shot at" the game. When these guys sit with $1500, you can usually expect their play to be less aggressive, and the raising standards of the players trying to push them out of the pot to be lowered.

These differences call for adjustment, obviously.

[Paluka]

Okay let me start off by saying that 89s utg was probably a bit too weak for me to limp with- I would categorize it as a mistake made out of frustration with my session. Not a horrible mistake, but a mistake. As for the KJs raise- I went through my pokertracker to see which hands I have limped with most often UTG in that game when it is near full. These were the hands- AA, KQs, AJs, 77 and 66. KJs not looking so hot, but given that this game is a bit loose it was more likely my range of hands would widen up to include QJs, TJs, and some others. The worst part about the raise I think is that you are isolating a good player instead of inviting in the weaker players with a hand that has some multiway value.

[Franchise (TTT)]

[ QUOTE ]
The worst part about the raise I think is that you are isolating a good player instead of inviting in the weaker players with a hand that has some multiway value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trying to isolate. Don't forget, he's still 6 off the button... That's 6 people behind you that could still have 3-betting hands (plus those annoying random coldcalls).

[J_V]

I think Ikke would agree with the fact that being dominated isn't that important. As its a long way down the yellow brick road w/ ace high.