A's from hell

[JDErickson]

Last night I had something happen that was new for me.

Everytime I got a high set of PP (TT-KK) a damn A would fall on the flop and I'd end up losing. It must have happened 10 times last night. I even was dealt KK twice back to back and lost oboth when an A fell on the flop and the Aanything players won.

How far does everyone go when this happens? Do you fold the reraise? Do you 3 bet and fold the cap? Do you call and hope for the set on the turn? I tried all 3 with varying success. Calling the raise and seeing the turn seemed to work the best for me. Than check/folding the turn if unimproved.

The biggest problem with this happening was my raises got no respect after I end up folding so often.

Any advice for this situation?

Thanx
Jim

[el_grande]

Based on this and your other post, it sounds like you are in tilt-mode.

All I can say is don't fall in love with TT-KK. After the flop, the odds of getting a set on the turn or river are very small. So you play it almost like you have 2nd pair. What would you do if you have A9s and the flop comes 9 5 K with none of your suit and you see lots of action?

[JohnShaft]

It's tough man. And it does suck to lose with KK to A2.

But the key is not what happens Preflop, but what happens Postflop. Can you get away from it at times? Can you get away cheaply?
I love being in spots like that where I raise with KK, get 4 callers, the flop comes A-hi, and I check-fold the flop, to see Ax win at the showdown. That is a sweet feeling man.

So as for what you do it depends TOTALLY on the action. Sometimes I might check-fold (a lot of "any A" callers), sometimes I might raise (shorthanded, with a bluffer betting, a flush draw on board), sometimes I might check-call (with a big pot with odds to hit my set).

If you post some examples it might help. Then maybe we can see if you could have made any better *postflop* decisions. Which is, in the end, the only thing you can do anything about. An Ace flopping if we have KK is after all completely out of our hands.

[ScottTheFish]

Against 1 or 2, I'll do what you did, call a flop raise and see the turn. Against 3 or more, i usually muck it, figureing at least one of them has an Ace. I have very rarely been wrong with 3+ opponents.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I love being in spots like that where I raise with KK, get 4 callers, the flop comes A-hi, and I check-fold the flop, to see Ax win at the showdown. That is a sweet feeling man.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we have different definitions of a "sweet feeling" man. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
So you play it almost like you have 2nd pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think second pair is a much STRONGER hand against multiple opponents than a pocket underpair. Especially with an overcard as in your A9 example. We're talking about 5 probable outs compared to 2. I'd call a bet with mid-pair/overcard but dump the kings everytime with 3 or more opponents. But then again, I'm not very good.

[Tosh]

Can't agree with that. A hand like A9s here has an extra 3 outs to improve than QQ would.

[JDErickson]

2 back to back KK hands

Hand 1

Party Poker 1/2 (10 handed)
Hero has K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and is MP2

EP2 limps, Hero raises, MP3 calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, EP2 calls

Flop(9 SB): Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, EP2 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, SB folds, EP2 calls

Turn(7 1/2 BB): 6/images/graemlins/club.gif

EP2 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, EP2 calls, Hero folds

River(9 1/2 BB): J/images/graemlins/heart.gif

EP2 bets, MP3 calls

MP3 showed AJo, EP2 showed QJo

Hand 2

Party Poker 1/2 (10 handed)
Hero has K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is CO

MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls

Flop(10 SB): T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, UTG folds

Turn(6 BB): 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

MP2 bets, Hero calls

River(8 BB): A/images/graemlins/club.gif

MP2 bets, Hero folds

Unknown MP2 hand but I'm sure there was an A. Same player as Hand 1


Hand 2 I know I misplayed. Should have folded the turn

Jim

[JohnShaft]

Hand 1:
I may have just folded. I may not have though. The Flop that is.
When you raise the Flop, which is correct if you're playing on, then check-folding the Turn is correct, to me.

Hand 2:
Hmmm. Well it looks like you intend to call him down (there's no draws). So I guess you figure you might be ahead. If you think he's bluffing I don't think calling him down is so bad.
But then you fold the River. Why? It changed nothing. You were already behind to a single Ace, and you still are. You are behind and ahead every single hand on the River you were on the Turn.
Can you tell me why you called the Flop and more importantly the Turn, and then folded on the River headsup for one bet? Did you intend to call the River when you called the Turn?


Looks like you're running into a few of these though Jim. You have my sympathies!

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell me why you called the Flop and more importantly the Turn, and then folded on the River headsup for one bet? Did you intend to call the River when you called the Turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest the only reason I called the turn was hoping for my 2 outer. I knew I was beat but continued anyway. On the river I came to my senses and folded. I don't think the flop call was that bad but I shoudl have folded the turn.

Jim

[JohnShaft]

To be honest the only reason I called the turn was hoping for my 2 outer. I knew I was beat but continued anyway.

See then it's pretty much just a matter of odds.
You're getting 7-1 (or 8 to 11/1 implied odds) to hit a 22-1. You're getting basically half the odds you need.

Based on that fact it isn't a call. Like you say the Fold on the Turn is best, unless you think there's a fair chance you're good.

On the river I came to my senses and folded.
I'm a great believer in hands like this (and ones even more ambigous) that it's better to call the Turn if you're calling the River. If not just fold right there on the Turn.


As for this whole concept of A's against KK, the one thing we have to be aware of is are we in a game with "Any A" players. If we are then KK on an A flop is really very much devalued. Not so in games where people only play good Aces, and they usually tell you about that preflop.
Aces on the flop when you have Kings really sucks in micro-limits. I'm with ya.

[blackaces13]

The A on the river helped you. It lowered the chances that he had another one. I think its a must call. He easily could have ha JJ or QQ.

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
The A on the river helped you. It lowered the chances that he had another one. I think its a must call. He easily could have ha JJ or QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blackman,

I agree with you on this one. The pre-flop raise in this hand could easily mean TT-KK. If he had an Ace JD was already beat, so after calling the turn I think calling the river for 1 more bet is a must.

TheRake

[ProfLupin]

[ QUOTE ]
The A on the river helped you. It lowered the chances that he had another one. I think its a must call. He easily could have ha JJ or QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree as well, and there are a few other (although less likely unless the player is a LAG) hands you could beat here. KQ, KJ, QJ

[triplc]

don't know if I'd call it a "Sweet Feeling", but I get what JohnShaft is saying here. I'm playing .50/1.00 and I raise it to a buck and get three calles. An A flops, there's lots of action and I fold. A6o takes it down.

the thing is, the next time I get KK, and an Ax and 3 others call me, and no A comes, I am going to likely collect a big pot from these guys. I lost a buck on the first hand, and won 3+ on the second hand.

Or same scenario, and an A does come, but no A is out, and I make a good read and take down a bluffer.

Or an ace comes, but you have a decent flush or straight draw and you take a big pot down.

Yes, your kings will get cracked by an ace quite a few times in your poker lifetime, but your kings will hold up a lot, and if you play them well they will be a huge winner in the long run.

[JohnShaft]

The "sweet feeling" thing. Well, doesn't there come a day when you get more satisfaction from playing a hand well (win or lose) than winning a hand that you played straightforwardly?

I can do nothing about pots I am destined to win or lose. If my Aces hold up by betting on ever street, cool. But there's nothing I've particularly done that I wouldn't have done the first day I started playing poker. Or anyone else at the table would do differently.

To make money in the long haul you have to play BETTER than your average opponents. You have to be able to make plays, which includes folding, they couldn't make. When you can make a laydown like KK on an A flop, and you're really very sure you're beat, and you turn out to be, that's great man. That's pure *earn*.

Shifting the good feelings into the "playing well" and out of the "winning money" I think is great man.
I can play a great session and lose money.
I can play a crappy session and win money.

Would you rather be playing great right now and lose money your first session.
Or playing crappy right now and win money your first session?

I'm all over the first one.

[triplc]

Another option that I have used with some effectiveness lately is to show strength on the flop and then back off when strength is shown back to me.

Example: I have KK on the button. Flop is Axx. someone bets into me, I raise, he reraises...Ok...now I back off and either call (if I think he's on a bluff or a very loose player that would play second pair) or fold it up now. Or, I could semi-bluff and cap the bet and represent Aces...

I also find that calling these hands down when heads up is a good opportunity to reduce your image as a "folder". Don't do this all the time, but the thing is, at micro limits you will win a lot of hands when the flop comes AQ6, and someone with KQo bets into you three times.

There are times when you should consider hanging in there with KK when an A flops. But you need to know your opponents a little bit before you try anything too tricky. And as the pot size gets bigger, you should be more inclined to call it down to the end if there's any doubt about your opponent's holding.