Pulling a Mason in a Family Pot...

3/6 holdem, 10 players. No maniacs, but this hand is looser than usual.


SB in seat 1, BB in seat 2, and Button in seat 10, etc. I'm in seat 6 w/KQo.




Preflop: All limp except for Button, who folds. SB raises. BB folds. All call to seat 8, who reraises. SB caps. UTG folds. Rest call. 7 players in a capped pot.




Flop: KQJr
Not the best flop, but a pretty darn good one. SB bets. Two people fold. I call with intention of pulling a Mason. 3 more callers behine me.




Turn: 3 [KQJr] with two dimonds
SB bets. I raise. Seat 8 folds. Rest call. 4 players left.




River: 5r [KQJ3] no flush
I bet and only SB calls.




It's not too hard to guess what SB has. What I'm interested is to find out whether or not I apply a chapter out of HFAP correctly? Thanks.

PP -


I don't know...I'd be very leery of giving a single T or even an A the chance to call a single bet to outdraw your top two pair. I would most likely raise on the flop in this situation because...


1) With 7 players in a capped flop, there's 28SB/14BB in the pot already. Since it's that big, I would want to take it down right away. I know I'll be up against an Ace, a ten (if not AT or T9 already,) and other good hands, so it's going to be rough sailing.


2) Since the flop is that big, players with a smaller pocket pair are getting enough odds to stay in for a single bet, hoping to catch a set. If I raise, I cut their pot odds down to 14:1, making that call incorrect. A single Ace is still getting proper odds to call, but I can't help that....and they may fold in this situation, which would be a benefit.


There is something to be said for "dropping the hammer" on the turn. When the blank hits, you can collect a BB (probably two) from the SB player who may have checked to you on the turn if you had raised the flop. You also force everyone behind you to call two BB instead of just one. I think your flop play could go either way, but I'd lean toward raising. I'm guessing the SB had either AA or AK.


HPFAP-21 is a great book, but its more sophisticated plays can only be used against players aware enough to think about what you actually have and what your plays mean. This is the exception at the LL tables that I've seen, rather than the rule. Most of the time, I like to run fast with my big hands in LL. Players are slow to fold, and I like to charge admission.


Nice pot, by the way =)

Since you are up against AA there just isn't much threat for overcards: someone with a J is drawing dead as far as you are conserned (if he maked trips you'll lose to AcesUp anyway). The only "free" card you may be giving is to someone with a stiff T drawing to what he thinks is 8 cards (and will NEVER fold) but only the 4 9s matter to you.


Giving free cards is not really an issue. Your objective is to get the opponents to invest as much of their money as you can in THIS pot. To do this, raising the flop may be the best play since you may get a double bet now AND on the turn, but that's a function of the players in the game.


- Louie

Our perceptions of things are both different and interesting.


Preflop, I don't like king-queen offsuit at all in raised pots. The likelihood of you being badly dominated is quite high. If a player raises in early position, I normally fold king-queen offsuit rather than call two bets cold. An early raiser will have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, or AQ and I am a huge dog. Of course if you call a single bet and it is raised behind you, you are obliged to call the raise as well when it swings back to you. But again, you are frequently dominated. In your case, a guy raises out of his small blind after many players limp in. This usually means AA, KK, QQ, or AK. Then after you call the single raise, another player behind you comes out of the woodwork with a raise (referred to as a limp reraise). A limp reraiser will frequently have a powerful hand like AA or KK. All this means is that you are in mortal danger having king-queen offsuit. Now when the small blind caps it, you have a chance to dump your piece of cheese rather than call two more bets back to you. YOU SHOULD AVOID PLAYING IN CAPPED POTS WITH KING-QUEEN OFFSUIT. You should not have taken a flop.


A flop of king-queen-jack is a horrifying flop given the preflop betting sequence despite you having the top two pair. You have to play but you should not like it all. You can easily be up against a set or even a straight with all these other players taking a flop with you. If you are in the lead, there are a ton of cards that can come off on the turn or river to run you down. Frankly, I don't think it matters whether you raise the flop bet or not. I would raise and not wait until the turn. You want to drive out some guy with a ten assuming you have the best hand which may not even be the case. If you don't have the best hand, you will probably get reraised. It would be nice to find out on the cheap street.

Given that you are probably against AA as Louie points out, the only hand a flop raise might fold on the turn is someone with a nine and no pair like 98 or 97. Notice that if he makes his gutshot you lose anyway (to the player with AA). It seems like waiting to the turn to raise is the correct play. Also not that if you raise on the flop and a bad card comes you will be sorry you did it.

It's my experience that when someone calls in late position after several players are in and then makes it three bets after there is a raise behind him (or from the blinds) he doesn't have AA or KK but a hand more like a medium suited connector and he has just decided to make the pot bigger. If he really had AA or KK he would want to raise immediately after several limpers.


"You want to drive out some guy with a ten assuming you have the best hand which may not even be the case."


While I agree that you may not have the best hand, there is virtually no player who will fold a ten since either an ace or a nine will give him a straight and the ace is the nuts.

"It's my experience that when someone calls in late position after several players are in and then makes it three bets after there is a raise behind him (or from the blinds) he doesn't have AA or KK but a hand more like a medium suited connector and he has just decided to make the pot bigger. If he really had AA or KK he would want to raise immediately after several limpers. "


Funny, but in my neck of the woods, this is commonplace amoungst players who like to play two cards before the flop. Any two cards.


Actually, I should clarify. This is commonplace amoungst CALIFORNIA-ITES. Where the maniacs roam free on the plains. Where limp-reraising is no different than calling.


Good ol' California: Where all the pots are large, all the men are strong, and all the women are good looking.


Actually, in games that feature more reasonable players (commonly found OUTSIDE CALIFORNIA), Mason is probably right.


Also, I doubt you could drive someone out who has a ten.


Dave in Cali

This hand took place on Paradise Poker. I doubt the guy who limp raise in late position had a big hand, because if he did, he would've raised it the first time around, so he probably has a suited connecter type of hand. There are a lot of people just like to build a big pot and gamble even on the Internet similar to California games.


I was worried more about SB as he's probably got AK,AA,KK,QQ,JJ. I completely agree with Jim that KQo is not a good hand to go 4 bets preflop, but since I was trapped, and I pretty much know that if I cold call the last two bets, I'm getting $6:$78 = 1:13.


One of the main reasons I wait until the turn to raise is that with a pot this big, flop raises mean nothing. So by raising on the turn, I achieve a few things: 1) I get a better picture where I'm at. 2) players behine me may get discourage to chase 4 or 2 outers. 3) Turn raise gets respect, and people won't try to push me off the pot with micky mouse crap. However, it is possible that SB has already flopped a set, but I had to take my chances.


I think Louie also has a good point with raising the flop for value and put more money in the pot instead of trying to drive out players behine me.


It turns out that SB has AK, and I took down a nice pot.