Good Fold?

[Danenania]

Hi all. First post on these boards but have been lurking a couple months. Fairly new poker player, a few months of serious study. Here is a hand for your analysis and pleasure. Point out any annotation mistakes along with any others.


Party .50/1.00 (10-handed)

Game is very loose and generally passive. Players seem to occasionally go on tilt and become maniacs for a short time, but usually a bunch of calling stations. Had been playing well (I think) but getting hand after hand cracked by turn/river.

Hero is on button, dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

UTG Limps, EP1 Limps, EP2 Limps, MP1 Folds, MP2 Folds, LP1 Limps, LP2 Limps, Hero Limps, SB Folds, BB Checks

Flop (7.5SB): A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB Checks, UTG Bets, EP1 Folds, EP2 Folds, LP1 Calls, LP2 Raises, Hero Calls, BB Folds, UTG Re-Raises, LP1 Calls, LP2 Calls, Hero Folds

The first raise made me suspicious that my ace might be outkickered, but I thought it could have possibly been either a spade draw semi-bluff or a weak ace trying to punish that draw so I called. On the second raise, however, I felt my worries were confirmed and it was safe to fold, especially with that third caller (LP1) in there, even though he seemed a straggler. At that point, I figured I was up against a flush draw, either an A-K/A-J or two-pair, and a prayer.

Turn (9.25BB): 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG Checks, LP1 Checks, LP2 Bets, UTG Calls, LP1 Calls

River (12.25BB): 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG Checks, LP1 Checks, LP2 Bets, UTG Raises, LP1 Folds, LP2 Calls

Results in white:
<font color="white"> UTG turns over a Q, LP2 has A with 9 kicker. Ugh. <font color="black">

[DaveB]

I would 3 bet the flop. It doesn't seem overly likely you are beat since a better ace than yours would often raise preflop. 22 is a possibility I guess. After that you can probably fold to excessive action on the turn unless you improve. Take control of the hand here.

[csuf_gambler]

wow these party games seem more like crap shoots then poker. is this the typically party game? 9 to the flop, open betting and re-rasing with 2nd pair, betting and raising with top pair and 9 kicker. seems very similiar to the pacific games i use to play.

[Henke]

If your opponents are playing poker like craps, it's a good thing (tm) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TheRake]

Danenania,

PF: I don't think limping in on the button is terrible, but ATo is a difficult hand to play. You can very easily give to much action to hands like AJ, AQ, etc.

Flop: I think calling here is your worst option. You should either 3-bet and try to take control of the hand or fold (which is probly to weak). I think closing the action you could have gone ahead and called one more bet to see the turn card.

Final thought: UTG looks like a bit of a maniac which makes your fold seem a bit to weak (closing the betting on the flop). You didn't give any player reads in this hand which may have been helpful.

Welcome to the board...

TheRake

[ProfLupin]

Good post Rake!

The flop is a clear case of "if you aren't going to fold, you'd better raise" in my opinion. Then if you get capped you know to fold on the turn (not on the flop) to any action ahead of you.

And yes, A10o is a tough hand to play.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Dane:

Pre-Flop: I often muck ATo after a bunch of limpers, especially in passive games. I prefer to play this with fewer opponents. But you have the button, and so okay.

Flop: The flop play is pretty bad. When it comes back to you for 2-bets, I think this one of those raise or fold situations--calling is, IMHO, the worst of the 3 options. If you think that you are behind to a bigger A (or better), what card do you want to see on the turn that would make your hand better? An A will not help you if you are already behind. A Ten may give you the winner, but you certainly do not want to see a T /images/graemlins/spade.gif. So you have 2 cards that will probably give you the win (again, assuming you are behind to a bigger A or A2) Since the pot is offering you about 5:1 or so, you have a clear fold. Now if you think you are ahead and up against a weaker A or spade draw, then I would 3 bet. You have excellent position and would like to take control of the hand here, as well as see just how much UTG likes his hand.

I am not sure what I would do here (without reads, I probably 3-bet), but here is what I would be thinking about:

Would my opponents raised a bigger A pre-flop? Would my opponents bet and/or raise a flush draw? Have my opponents been generally passive post flop, or have they been aggressive? The more passive my opponents are here, the more I would tend to fold...the more aggressive my opponents are here, the more I tend to 3-bet.

I hope this is somewhat helpful.

--Rico

[triplc]

Tough hand, Danenania...can I call you Dane?

If the game was truly as loose as you say it was, I think I threebet the flop to see where you stand or call this down to the showdown unless the flush appears. You've decided to play ATo, and you get an ace. You've made your hand. There is a bet, and a raise, and you decide to call...you might as well call the reraise and see what the turn brings.

You have a few ways to win this hand. First, you might already have the best hand. Second, the board might pair and make your kicker a Q (likely good enough given the preflop play), a ten might fall, you even have a backdoor straight, although it's likely to give someone else the straight first, so that's not very compelling.

When the pot gets big, and you think you might have the best hand, you should always stay in until there's evidence that you do not. A raise and reraise on the flop in a loose game is not enough to drop this hand, in my opinion, given the size of the pot.