Harrington and Moneymaker

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

I've been hearing that during the WSOP that there was not only some friction between Dan Harrington and Chris Moneymaker, but that Dan thought very little of Moneymaker's playing ability. I'm pretty sure that just the opposite is the case.

For those who don't know, Dan happens to be a long time friend of mine, and I spoke to him at The Bellagio pokerroom a couple of days after his third place finish in this year's WSOP. He told me that by chance he was at Moneymaker's table on the first day of the tournament. Dan said that he was so impressed with his game that he went and told several top players who were nearbye that this was a kid they needed to watch. Well, obviously Dan was right.

Also, Dan had only compliments for Moneymaker's ability and performance at the final table.

Best wishes,
Mason

[BreakEvenPlayer]

You know, I was there on Day 2, the day before he was at the table with Chan and Lederer which got a lot of play on ESPN. He mentioned in the interviews how he was getting run over by some of the better players and he wanted to play his game.

I'll tell you he made a ton of laydowns on this day, I wouldn't have noticed him if his last name wasn't Moneymaker, everyone was making a big deal about this. Well, it's really hard to explain, but anyone who saw his performance throughout the week knows that he has an instinct when it comes to reads, things that can't be taught. You can say he outdrew people a few times, but nonetheless he made consistent and incredible plays, and a victory in the Big Event in NO WAY can be attributed to pure luck.

[wayabvpar]

Thanks Mason... I am sure you saw the long thread on RGP about this. Nice to hear that there wasn't any friction. It would have been nice if ESPN covered each player at the final table a bit more (Harrington got some, but Pak, Singer and Gray were hardly mentioned until their brief appearances), so as an audience we would have had more idea of the 'history' of each player and whether they interacted previously in the tournament.

Anyone who wins a WSOP title got lucky at some point in the tournament. However, luck alone is not enough to carry you to the top; you need to be playing some damned good poker too. Nice to see Moneymaker get some credit from one of the top players.

[JTG51]

That's good to hear. I've never met him, but from watching on TV Harrington seemed like a real class act. I'm glad you confirmed that.

[Tyler Durden]

Can you post the link to the RGP thread please? thanks much.

[Tyler Durden]

Do you think Chris Moneymaker is the John Daly of poker b/c he came out of nowhere? B/c it can also be misconstrued that he has imploded and has similar behavioral issues to what Daly had when he was on the tour (remember, he once claimed that drug use was rampant on the PGA Tour).

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Hmmm. Moneymaker & Daly. Well, both have a more complete game than most give them credit for. Unlike Daly, Moneymaker's only won one major.

[sleepyjoeyt]

Here's some info on Singer (not good stuff):

I was playing in a mix game at Foxwoods with him somewhere around 3 or 4 years ago. It was a full table, real high stakes for me ($75/$150 I think).

We were playing omaha eight or better and there was a showdown at the river between him and one other player. He put his hand down (faceup) on the table and announced "Two pair, 6 low", the dealer confirmed this, and the other player mucked his hand.

About 2 seconds later someone stated "How can he have 6 low when one of his pair is nines?"

The other guy's hand was already mucked, but he claimed that he had a qualifying low hand. The floor was called over, they went to check the tapes, no tape was running for this table, and the floor said there was nothing that could be done since the other hand was dead (but did mention that it was up to David to decide if he wanted to give the guy any of the money that he had put in).

David said that he'd give him $100 but that was all he could do. It wasn't his fault that he read his hand wrong, and then that the dealer confirmed it. The other guy wanted nothing to do with the black chip, considering that he had put in over a thousand during the hand.

A couple of people at the table confirmed that David was way too smart a player to have made this mistake and that it was (in their opinion) a dishonest move by David.

Although he is a great, successful player, I haven't looked at him the same way since.

And yes, I was glad when he set that trap at the final table with his pair of aces, queen kicker, and lost to the aces up.

Again I don't claim to know him well or know much about him, but he was playing at a table with a bunch of fish (me included) so he didn't need to pull that crap (if it was as many believed it to be).

[wayabvpar]

Hopefully this will work-
RGP thread (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=728a279b.0401091215.4329460f%40posting.g oogle.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fas_q%3Dharrington%2520moneymaker%26safe%3 Dimages%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26lr%3D%26hl%3Den)

If not, you can search for the thread by using Harrington and Moneymaker as search criteria.

[JTrout]

Daly: gifted with more talent (in golf) than 99% of professionals, but handicapped mentally/emotionally as much as any professional I've ever seen.
As nice a guy as you would want to meet, but a wife-beater.
Dr.Jekyll/ Mr. Hyde.

Moneymaker:
(Based solely on watching him on TV and a few forum posts)
Probably more talented in every skill needed to be a poker pro than half of all poker pros, but I doubt he's in the top 10% in any skill (except moneymaking!).

Hopefully we won't read about Chris being in debt to the casinos for over $1m, or needing treatment for substance abuse. If so, he'll be far ahead of JD.

But on the flip side, although John will always blow any money he gets his hands on, he'll always be able to get his hands on some money. Not sure it'll be as easy for Chris.

[TimTimSalabim]

I don't get it (with the disclaimer I don't play O8 a lot). Couldn't he have had something like 9962, in which case if the board was something like JJ54A, he'd have "two pair and a 6 low"?

[drewjustdrew]

It's an angle shot, but the opponent needs to play hands he is not ashamed of turning over. This isn't Singer's problem.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I've played with Singer a handful of times at Foxwoods in the big mixed game.

He is typically very quiet, doesn't chit-chat like so many of us, and probably isn't all that well liked as a result. He prefers a quiet table, and will ask players to quit talking past him if he's in a hand (e.g., if he's in the 3 seat, in a hand, and the 2 and 4 seat are talking to one another).

He is very smart and very quick. I have never seen him play a hand in a manner that I thought was clearly mistaken, nor have I seen him misread a hand. And I wouldn't expect him to make a mistake like that hardly ever.

He is very nit-picky on the rules. Used to be a lawyer, knows the rules, and will use them to his advantage any time he can do so. However, I've also seen him enforce a rule against himself to his own disadvantage.

I am surprised by the story. It seems unlikely to me that he would misread his hand, but it ALSO seems unlikely to me that he would shoot an intentional angle such as this. Given that paradox, I am going to assume that it was an honest mistake, since I've never seen him do anything dishonest before.

And, of course, in Omaha8 you can have two pair 9 or higher, and still have a low, of course. Now, if this were Stud8, then you can't have two pair, 9s up or higher, and still have a low. Maybe that is what the original poster meant. And I have seen this particular misreading mistake by many players before, though not David.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi wayabvpar:

David Grey is also a pretty good friend of mine. Up until a few years ago we use to play tennis two or three times a week. (He was nationally ranked as a junior.) Unfortunately his arm begtan to bother him (like mine is bothering me now) so he turned to golf.

It's too bad they didn't focus more on David. He's a good guy and regularly plays in some of the biggest games in the world, and he plays very well.

Best wishes,
Mason

[wayabvpar]

Thanks, Mason. I think some focus on David would have brought some comedy to the proceedings; from what little we did see of him, he seemed like he had a great sense of humor. Hard to tell what kind of player he was from the couple of hands we saw, but getting to a final table is no mean feat, so I am guessing he has some game =)

[grmpyolmn]

Has Moneymaker been in any tounaments lately? Haven't heard of any.

[Bill Murphy]

..I thought Dan should've opened it up a little, esp. after he doubled up to 1.1 mil; take advantage of his tight image.

I saw & read where he limped a couple of times w/hands like Ax and lost big pots to Moneymaker. Even when following the "action" live on the Net, I was thinking Dan should've been tossing in some pre-flop allins.

Hindsight is 20/20, of course, and Dan is one of the best NLHE tourney players ever. Just curious if he's done a Monday morning QB on himself.

[BreakEvenPlayer]

I was just poking fun at the fact that everyone calls Phil Ivey the Tiger Woods of poker. I mean, it's ridiculous how everyone's always trying to make comparisons like this. Phil Ivey is just a damn good player, there's nothing else that needs to be said.

[sleepyjoeyt]

CORRECTION:

It was Stud/8, NOT Omaha 8.

Sorry for the confusion.

The gentlemen who got stiffed is probably late 50s, not of American decent (I don't want to guess), a little heavy set, and often plays in the $75/$150 game. Seemingly classy guy who got a little ticked off that David made this error and wouldn't do the "honorable" thing and at least give him his $ back.

He is also someone who plays because he enjoys it, not because he needs the $ (he rejected the $100 offer).

It happened, and I thought David's position and attitude were a little off based, as he contributed to the problem by bullying the dealer (as many people do at these stakes: "We'll read the hands for you. You just deal the cards. We're paying time, you know").

[Tyler Durden]

I don't understand why some people dislike Moneymaker for his animation at the final table. I was quite surprised that from what we saw on ESPN, none of the other players seemed to be celebrating their wins (although against Moneymaker, they didn't have many). I think it would be tough not to be visibly emotional when playing under that kind of stress with so much cash at stake.

I think that if I was playing at the final table I'd be celebrating every big hand and every all-in that I won. And if people don't like me as a result, that's no big deal.

[drewjustdrew]

I think people were put off by his Dad, who didn't know his ass from his elbow. It probably rubbed off on Chris as well.

[thomastem]

The same thing that's wrong with the SS forum.......hmmmm can we get another 200 posts?

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
Has Moneymaker been in any tounaments lately? Haven't heard of any.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, he was in the WPT PokerStars cruise tour and out on day one (which began today). Also out are Phil Ivey, Erik Seidel, Paul Phillips and Allen Cunningham, among others. This is according to reports on RGP from cruise participants. Chris Ferguson, Andy Bloch and Daniel Negreanu are all at the top of the chip lead.

[ClunkerDuds]

Stew, could u be so kind as to give a link to the RGP thread about the Pokerstars cruise, thanks.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
Stew, could u be so kind as to give a link to the RGP thread about the Pokerstars cruise, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll do you one better, straight from Pokerstars:

http://www.pokerstars.com/PCAmain.html for daily updates,

today's update: http://www.pokerstars.com/WPTStandingsDay1.html

RGP Link:
http://www.recpoker.com/article.php?gID=1&ID=298388

[Ray Zee]

if i was singer i wouldnt give the guy a nickel back since he didnt show his low. singer misscalled his hand and the other guy read it wrong as well and mucked. for him to be entitled to anything except sorry, he needed to show something which he didnt.
just because you make a mistake doesnt mean you lose the pot to someone who clians they had it beat. to lose you need to be shown a better hand.
and no one owes someone who does the quick mucking thing any air when they hit the deck too soon.

[sucka]

I think people were put off by his Dad, who didn't know his ass from his elbow

I was going to say the same thing.

The final table was on again over the weekend and I watched a little of it. They pan over to Chris' Dad and he says something like, "Sammy's gonna go mess around and bluff and Chris is gonna catch him..."

Then of course, when it's all said and done his Dad is over there trying to shake Sammy's hand and offer up his comments.

Clearly the guy is a moron, I coudn't help but notice the same thing when I was watching.

[sleepyjoeyt]

To be honest, I don't remember what the "other" player did. I don't remember if he showed his hand or not, whether he mucked right away, or whatever. But I will say this: there was no doubt in anyone's mind at the table that he had the qualifying hand that he claimed. I'm not sure if this was because of his rep as an honest player, if he had shown his cards, or what the situation was.

The story would probably be a lot better if I remembered all the details but I don't.

I just remember thinking that he (David) seemed way too intelligent a player to make this kind of mistake. He is very analytical, thinks about every decision, and everything pointed to it being a calculated move.

And the dealer was a young girl who was very antimidated by the players, who were all over her for being too slow (which contributed to her quick misread of the hand).

[JTrout]

In regards to Chris's dad, I respectfully disagree.

You put a camera in most people's face, thrust in a situation they aren't familiar with (watching a poker tournament), mix in paternal pride, and throw in $2.5 million just to spice things up, and who would be prepared for that?

I thought he came off as a very proud father. And he did pick up that tell on Sammy! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

To claim that he is clearly a moron, based on the info gotten from that little bit of TV time, is clearly a moronic statement. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Tyler Durden]

I totally agree. Clearly the guy doesn't know much about poker, he came across as someone proud of what his son was doing, and I thought it was respectful and appropriate of him to shake Sammy Farha's hand afterwards.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]

Yea, he was in the WPT PokerStars cruise tour and out on day one (which began today). Also out are Phil Ivey, Erik Seidel, Paul Phillips and Allen Cunningham, among others. This is according to reports on RGP from cruise participants.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool, do they have satellite linkups to the Internet on board?

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yea, he was in the WPT PokerStars cruise tour and out on day one (which began today). Also out are Phil Ivey, Erik Seidel, Paul Phillips and Allen Cunningham, among others. This is according to reports on RGP from cruise participants.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool, do they have satellite linkups to the Internet on board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, most all cruise ships these days do, quite costly however.

[stupidsucker]

If he never showed his hand, its unfair to even ASK him to give away a dime of the pot. Its unfair to assume ANYTHING. Who is to say that he that he misread his own hand, or called him down thinking he was on a pure bluff.

Everyone should know this rule in poker. You muck your hand, its done.. I also think its unfair to judge someone character on one hand of poker in one game, that someone can hardly remember right. Is there any other stories of this happening? Or is it once isolated insocdent?

I am not to farmilar with any of the pros, or their demeanor, so I am trying to be as unbiased as possible. I am no pro, but I am smart enough to not muck my hand before I look at the cards myself.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
If he never showed his hand, its unfair to even ASK him to give away a dime of the pot. Its unfair to assume ANYTHING. Who is to say that he that he misread his own hand, or called him down thinking he was on a pure bluff.

Everyone should know this rule in poker. You muck your hand, its done.. I also think its unfair to judge someone character on one hand of poker in one game, that someone can hardly remember right. Is there any other stories of this happening? Or is it once isolated insocdent?

I am not to farmilar with any of the pros, or their demeanor, so I am trying to be as unbiased as possible. I am no pro, but I am smart enough to not muck my hand before I look at the cards myself.




[/ QUOTE ]

What in the Sam Hill are you talking about?

[Tyler Durden]

He's talking about the David Singer incident mentioned further up in the thread.

[Expunge]

[ QUOTE ]
In regards to Chris's dad, I respectfully disagree.

You put a camera in most people's face, thrust in a situation they aren't familiar with (watching a poker tournament), mix in paternal pride, and throw in $2.5 million just to spice things up, and who would be prepared for that?

I thought he came off as a very proud father. And he did pick up that tell on Sammy! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

To claim that he is clearly a moron, based on the info gotten from that little bit of TV time, is clearly a moronic statement. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well isn't it funny that the hand when chris bluffed all in the his fathers read was incorrect?
Also how useful is the read when you have already acted before the so called tell comes out?

[Stew]

LOL my name was in the reply and I was wondering what that was all about.

Thanks!

[JTrout]

Expunge, welcome to the forum.

Regarding Chris' dad and the tell, I was attempting to be funny. That's why the /images/graemlins/grin.gif was there!