Moral Dilema...What to do?

[Swiss Cheese]

I am playing in a very good 10-20 game and player to my right is showing me his cards by accident....I warn him but it continues I try not to look but if I don't pay attention to not paying attention to his cards I will see what he has. He has been drinking pretty heavily, and a very nice guy and a fairly decent player(before the drinking started affecting his judgement) He is raising substandard hands, so what do you do?

Swiss Cheese

[Warik]

You warned him and he's still doing it... his job to protect his hand, not yours. Are you going to fold AA vs. 27o because he doesn't know any better? Clean 'em out or move to another seat.

[James282]

I would look at his cards if I had already warned him. Take this with a grain of salt, but in principle it isn't too much different than having a really good tell on somebody. You were already nice enough to tell him what he was doing wrong - you would never do that if some other player had a very obvious tell you could exploit.
-James

[Trefo]

Pounce on him.........It's not your fault your playing with a drunk idiot.....You warned him which was plenty fair of you......now its time to take the cash......as this guy obviously doesn't care about his money.

[Eric P]

last time i played 6-12 the guy to my right was showing me his cards every hand, he was a very looses raiser so i was able to idolate with real trash hands that dominated him. Example i would get 97 and see his 76 after he rasied and i would three bet, usually it wouldn't go to a showdown but it gave me just about the loosest image you can get.


There is absoulty no shame in abusing thhis especially after you say "protect your hand" (which i did, but i literally could not, not see his hand without going WAY out of my way)

[Piers]

Taking his money is ok, the main problem is that you can also gain an unfair advantage over the other players.

I would make sure the other players know what is going on then feel free to take advantage of the situation while not particularly trying to.

[onegymrat]

Hi Cheese,

Either look at his cards or don't look at his cards. I do not see this as a difficult decision, it's just a matter of discipline.

By the way, if he's an ass, then definitely look. Good luck.

[bad beetz]

look at his cards. This way, you know what he is holding and can play much closer to perfect according to the fundamental theory of poker.

I sat directly left of a young man on ecstasy. He was raising every hand, drinking lots of water, and sweating, and touching things. He was friendly, though. He showed me his cards every time, not on purpose. I put on shades, but despite knowing his two hole cards every time, I could not enter a pot for the time he was at the table. yes, it's wrong, but my conscience just isn't good enough to feel bad enough to not look.

[Kevin J]

You realize that your moral dilemna is not so much with your unfair advantage over the guy sitting next to you, but with the unfair advantage you hold over your more able competition who cannot see these exposed cards, right?

[Kevin J]

Again, it's not about your advantage over one guy who's careless enough to expose his cards, it's about the advantage this gives you over the rest of the table.

*What if you knew the deck was missing the ace of spades, would you point this out?

*How about if the dealer accidently exposed a card, would you not say anything here?

*What if a guy accidently put too much money in a pot you were about to win, would you point it out?

I think there's an integrity that should be maintained when playing poker. Knowing 2 cards that are out of play every hand while no one else has this same info, is paramount to cheating as far as I'm concerned.

[Philuva]

If this guy was in the SB and you were in the BB and you didn't want to chop and you were heads up, then it would be fine. But if any other players are still yet to act, it is an unfair advantage outside the realm of normal poker skills that you have over the rest of the table.

If this didn't go unpunished, then teams could simply do this on purpose together by flashing their cards to each other and betting and raising accordingly to drive out other players.

To me it is collusion, even if the guy flashing his cards to you in unaware he is doing it.

[bad beetz]

I've told a guy he was showing his cards before, but I really liked the guy. I never thought about having an advantage over the others at the table and not just the guy swing his cards, but then also, I don't really care.

So it's wrong. Sue me. I drive to fast too and used to pilfer office supplies. I took 3 staplers off Agilent's bottom line. Sorry stockholders.

[I.Rowboat]

Every casino in which I've played poker has had a statement in their rule book that says: "It is each player's responsibility to protect their own cards."

While I think it is nice to point out to someone that you can see their hole cards, I do not belive that the rules of poker require you to do so. As Mason said in a post a few weeks ago on a different topic, poker is not merely some game played by gentlemen trying to outwit one another, where the score is kept with chips; poker is about taking money from people. Strong players take money from weak players all the time, and there's nothing unethical abotu that. Sober players salivate at the thought of taking money from drunks, and apparently it doesn't become unethical unless/until the drunk becomes abusive. Case in point: I once played in a stud game at the Rio with a player so drunk that he had to lay all of his hole cards face up on the table to read his hand. No one -- not the dealer, the poker host, or any of the players watching this said a word to discourage him. But they did raise him when they had him beat.

And while the above example doesn't directly address the incident in this thread, it does support the essence of my argument, which is that you must have your wits about you when you play, and you must be in command of your actions; those actions that you perform as a player, such as handling your cards, are your responsibility. If you can't figure out how to view your cards without exposing them to a player on your left or right, you shouldn't be playing in a public cardroom. And if drinking or doing ecstacy interfere with your ability to play in a cardroom, you probably shouldn't do those things when you play.

Poker is not golf, where you are expected to declare your mistakes. Poker is a game of deception, con, and hustle, where you try to obscure your mistakes and capitalize on the mistakes of others.

[Kevin J]

I didn't agree with Mason on this either. Like it or not, the game of poker has evolved from the days of the wild-wild west. We can now leave our guns at home too.

One reason our beloved game has seen such an explosion in popularity, is precisely because it is losing some of these negative connotations which have long been associated with poker. Poker is finally coming to be viewed as a respectable activity. In turn, it has brought people from all walks of life who may never have mustered up the will to try their hand at the game. This is a good thing.

In my opinion, you are confusing ruthless competition with integrity... I have no problem with being competetive. Even to the point where I'd take the last of your grocery money if you put in on the table. But... I won't cheat you out of it.

Like I said, my problem is not with taking advantage of a guy who doesn't know enough to keep his cards to himself. My problem is with gaining an unfair advantage over the guy at the other end of the table. Where do you draw the line? If you'll take that unfair advantage, what else are you willing to do? I think it's possible to be a ruthless competitor while still keeping your integrity intact.

Btw- One thing which might be causing major sponsorship to shy away from tournaments is the implication of team play and/or cheating. Maybe poker could learn something from the world of golf.

[Philuva]

Your examples involded acts where EVERYONE at the table was getting the same information and those that can take advantage of it the best will profit the most. I have no issue with that. If he exposes his cards to everyone, no big deal.

My issue is when there are acts done at the table that clearly give one person an advantage over other players at the table and no poker skills are involved.

What if you are sitting across from the dealer and you can see that cards coming off as they are being dealt. Should you say anything?

If the player was showing you his cards on purpose, it would be considered cheating as there are more than one person to a hand.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Philuva]

You are not an A-hole, just a different value system. Nothing wrong with that.

How has your game been going since your New Year's resolution?

[I.Rowboat]

[ QUOTE ]
Your examples involded acts where EVERYONE at the table was getting the same information and those that can take advantage of it the best will profit the most. I have no issue with that. If he exposes his cards to everyone, no big deal.

My issue is when there are acts done at the table that clearly give one person an advantage over other players at the table and no poker skills are involved.

What if you are sitting across from the dealer and you can see that cards coming off as they are being dealt. Should you say anything?

If the player was showing you his cards on purpose, it would be considered cheating as there are more than one person to a hand.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: I consider myself to be a very honest player -- I never shoot angles, am never abusive, and take both wins and losses without excessive displays of emotion. If a dealer flashes a card as it is being dealt, I call it out. I always play by the rules as I understand them.

That said, I really don't see this situation as a moral dilemma, and I certainly don't see it as cheating. To me, this is just part of playing poker -- part of the play of the hand. If someone sits next to me and cannot adequately protect their hand such that I can see their hole cards without craning my neck, using daubs, funny contact lenses, or opalescent glasses, I will try to take advantage of the information that becomes available. To me, this information is just another tell, albeit a pretty damn good one. And I would expect anyone who sees my hole cards to take advantage of that information as well.

Would a situation like this this give me an unfair advantage over players who cannot see this same information? I'm sure it would, but for better or worse, concealment of one's hand is one of the cardinal principals upon which the game of poker operates, and a player unable to conceal their hand is going to be playing at a distinct disadvantage. So is a drunk player, and a player who consistently acts out of turn.

As for this information benefitting me alone vs. a drunk benefitting (or afflicting) the entire table, well, we all have to sit to the right or left of someone. I absolutely agree that this type of behavior is collusion if both parties do it with intent. But if the person exposing their cards isn't doing so with intent, but instead because they are careless, or drunk, or high, I don't see any moral dilemma in looking. But then again, I'm not running for Pope, I'm just trying to win money in a card game.

[Victor]

i would think that a card table would be the last place i would want to be on ecstasy

[Seenote]

Swiss Cheese & Kevin J

Stop the madness!!!
The next time you spot a players "Tell", let him know about it so you can feel better about yourself, because according to your logic it's unfair to him & the other players that you picked up on this information and nobody else did.
Save yourself and ask for a table change.

If you sit next to me and flash cards in my face your dog meat.

Seenote

[Kevin J]

Man.. What's so hard to understand about this? For the last time. I don't care that it's unfair to HIM.. I care that it's unfair to ME when I don't have the same info you do. And you can bet that if I ever saw a guy exposing his hand to you, I'd call it every single time, so it's a mute point. Your unsavory character would never prevail anyway.

[M.B.E.]

Of course Kevin J is correct that your seeing this player's cards is unfair to everyone else at the table. The way I usually deal with this situation is to avert my eyes and tell the player discreetly to protect his hand better. If he continues flashing his cards I might give him one other discreet warning, and then warn him loud enough that other players at the table can hear. Then if the player continues to flash his cards, I figure I can pay attention, and use the information, with a clear conscience since I've warned not only the particular player but everyone else at the table. At some point the dealer should intervene and ensure that the player is not flashing cards.

This issue comes up fairly often on 2+2, especially in the Psychology forum and the Brick and Mortar forum. Here is a thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=242825) from the Texas Hold'em forum in April 2003.

[bad beetz]

It was good, I was up to over a big bet an hour at 20/40
which means nothing cause it's a sample size of 53 hours

Then I had a -$1500 last night session which sucked a phatty. That, and I think my brains' filling up with sperm.

[bernie]

how far can you go to help him protect his hand? how many warnings can you give?

i personally dont like seeing their cards since this is info that is available to only 1 person. me. even though im not asking for it.

i dont know. ive been on tables where i was brushing the guys cards back towards him with my hand after telling him a few times that i could see them. one reason i'd make it known is for the collusion angle. especially in smaller, more seedy places like i used to play at for obvious reasons. especially if i was unfamiliar with the room.

but still, how far do you go? i do fully believe in keeping the integrity of the room intact. and other new players seeing this may get the wrong idea about the place.

if i only see them once, i probably wouldnt say anything. sometimes it happens. but if it was obvious most of the time, id say something.

being a regular in a room, especially a small room, you will learn alot about why you want self policing, keeping the integrity, in the game. a questionable room can get a reputation and eventually really suffer. i saw it happen, but for different reasons but along the same lines. much worse, actually.

now about frontloading...

this isnt cheating. why? everyone has the opportunity to do it. the sides are easier to see, but ive seen some from the 5 seat. since this info can be available to everyone, it's open game. it's not isolated to 1 player. though i have been known to say something to the dealer after they finish their down. i wouldnt say a thing while they're dealing. this can make some players suspicious of the game/room. but i also get along with many, many dealers. so if i can help them out in their thankless job a little, i will. this can also have a benefit of having a more valid opinion with floor decisions when disputes arise. they will trust your integrity a little more, imo. it's worked for me, anyways.

but again, with the initial question. how far can you go with telling a guy you can see his hand. do you get him out of the game if he just wont stop? tough boundary to see.

b

[Johnny]

If he doesnt want to protect his cards, thats his problem.

I wouldnt feel guilty for the slightest second.

Even if it was my grandmother sitting there, as sweet as she God rest her soul, I wouldnt think twice about it.

I could be very friendly at the table. But as soon as you get into a pot with me, it's either kill, or be killed.

"You got think of it as a war"
Mike McD

[Kevin J]

That was a very good thread with people making my point far better than I was able to do here. Thanks.

[Tommy Angelo]

I think you should do whatever you think is right, and it will be.

If forced to weigh injustices, I'd say the advantage the peeker gets is way more unfair to the field than it is to the drunk guy. The drunk guy, we could say, is getting what he had coming. Whereas the rest of the field, able and sober, made no errors (such as post-mortems) that would rightfully make them suffer an informational disadvantage to me.

Perhaps that is why my usual procedure is to not only warn the drunk guy that I can see his cards, but to do it in such a way that attentive members of the field are also alerted to my advantage. Then, if the drunk guy continues to flash me his cards, at least the field knows of my advantage, and to some extent, this in itself lessens my advantage over the field, and my sense of fairness is left reasonably intact.


Tommy

[Ray Zee]

by looking at his cards you are in fact cheating the other players somewhat. what would be the difference if the two of you were in collusion with one seeing the others hand. so it isnt fair to the others playing. but if he wont stop you cant be expected to change your game to suit the others. so you have an obligation to let the others know that you can see his cards. if they dont complain then its up to you to decide whats moral. but the real thing is that the dealer knows this and is letting it go on. so the dealer and in effect the house as he is their employee are basically allowing cheating to take place.
it goes back to in poker you must protect yourself as no one but you is looking out for your interests. especially the house.