In a pickle with A9s

[Brian]

Party 3/6. Table is loose-passive pre-Flop, but can get pretty aggressive on the Flop. No specific reads. I am dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the cutoff. UTG, UTG+1 limp, EP poster checks, MP and LP limp. I raise, Button folds, SB and BB call, everyone else calls. 8 to the Flop for 16sb.

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

All check to LP who bets. I raise. SB folds, BB cold-calls, UTG and UTG+1 fold, EP cold-calls. MP folds, and LP re-raises. I call, as do BB and EP. 4 to the Turn for 28sb (14bb).

Turn: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

All check to LP who bets. I call, as do BB and EP. 4 to the River for 18bb.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

All check to LP who bets. I call, and BB and EP fold. Who plays it differently?

-Brian

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

I think it was played fine. Without a strong read on LP, your hand is too strong to lay down for one bet on the turn or river. However, I think you lost to 99, 77, 55 or 68, maybe 97s or 75s...there's a slim chance he might have been jamming the nut flush draw, but I doubt it.

[AceHigh]

Against an unknown you played it OK. Even with the flush getting there on the turn you probably have to call.

[j.k.]

I would have folded on the turn. You may be looking at a set who is worried about the coordinated flop, thus bets into you on flop hoping you raise and knock some out. The other possibility is he is ramming with the flush which gets there on the turn. I call the three bet on the flop looking for a second dimond, but otherwise I doubt top pair/kicker wins this one.

[GuidoSarducci]

I don't see anything wrong with this play. You have TPTK on the flop and played it aggressively. I think it most likely that you're looking at a ram and jam situation from LP, so it's likely he made his flush at the turn and you're dead, but with the pot at 18BB, you're pretty much committed to call it down.

[JohnShaft]

I think you played it fine really Brian.

But let me be contrary, for the sake of it, and throw out a different way of playing it. For the hell of it really.

You decide to call him down on the Turn, so you're going to be putting 2 more BB's in. Your hand doesn't look like it's getting any better, and if anything, if he has you beat, it looks like you're drawing dead anyway (the Flush, or a Boat)
But if you're ahead there's a world of Rivers that hurt.

If LP is sane, how about Raising the Turn, and (probably) checking the River, instead of calling down on both streets?

That way, if you're ahead, you charge the flush draws, as well as probably getting overcards to fold.

If you're 3-bet on the Turn you fold confident you know you're beat. As I say LP has to be sane enough that he'll only 3-bet you with a hand that beats you though.

I think if you get 3-bet then you're drawing dead anyway, so calling hoping to improve, instead of raise/folding, I don't see as a better option anyway.

I don't know that this is a better play, but it's maybe worth thinking about?

[Clarkmeister]

Well stated and correct. Raise is your best turn option.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're 3-bet on the Turn you fold confident you know you're beat. As I say LP has to be sane enough that he'll only 3-bet you with a hand that beats you though.


[/ QUOTE ]

The fly in the ointment is you can't fold to a 3-bet, the pots too big.

If you raise on the turn and get 3-bet there will be at least 19BB in the pot when it comes back to you. More if the other 2 players call. Since the board paired you have outs against the flush. You likely have 4-5 outs and have 2 outs except against 99 and 55. So you can't fold to a 3-bet here.

Also, against this is the fact that your opponent is relatively unknown so you can't assume he is sane.

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you get 3-bet then you're drawing dead anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

You are only drawing dead to 99/55/8h6h.

Raising has merit if there is a chance you can knock out BB and EP, and there is a chance you are ahead.

I'm not sure whether calling or raising is better. It depends on how likely you are to be ahead, how likley you are to fold BB and EP and how likely you are to be 3-bet. But you can't raise with the intention of folding to a 3-bet.

[JohnShaft]

The fly in the ointment is you can't fold to a 3-bet, the pots too big.

You're right about the outs you likely have. I realised, after posting, that you probably do have two 9's and two 5's. Though if you have all four is in some doubt.
And the pot is real big. That's the crucial factor.

The problem is because the pot is SO big AND your hand is SO vulnerable I don't think calling helps.
Even if you want to say that you won't get all the hearts to fold (and if they're aren't strong you may) any number of overcards kill you. (And chuck in a gutshot or two).

The pot is big. There's so many rivers that kill you. I think you have to Raise, knowing you may be behind, because if you're ahead you run a great risk of losing the pot by calling.

As for folding to the 3-bet I think, given that you do have a few fingers of possible outs, I guess you're correct.
Who knows, a Flush may even back off if you raise the Turn, which makes Raising the Turn more correct. If I knew I wasn't going to get 3-bet here I definitely Raise.

It is a tricky hand. And the size of the pot does influence things significantly.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to Raise, knowing you may be behind,

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to make sure we agree, there has to be some chance you are ahead to make raising correct?

I agree it is important to get BB and EP out, they almost have to be drawing live against us. But only if we might be ahead (maybe as low as 20% chance) and we think there is a chance we can get them to fold.

If we know our opponent has us beat calling is better.

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to make sure we agree, there has to be some chance you are ahead to make raising correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. The ONLY reason to Raise is for the chance you are ahead. Specifically to significantly reduce the chance you can be outdrawn, and therefore lose the pot for lack of a Raise.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree it is important to get BB and EP out, they almost have to be drawing live against us. But only if we might be ahead (maybe as low as 20% chance) and we think we can get them to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely. See the thing with the pot being so big, and a typical bad player being what they are, they may call with almost anything in such a big pot. Hands they wouldn't dare call two cold with, with the possibility of paying 3 or more. But hands that could be drawing plenty live against us if we *are* ahead.

My brain didn't really process the paired board so much when I made my initial post. Without that, we are most likely drawing dead if behind. In the spot without them outs I think this is a 100% raise or fold scenario.
It's just them coupla/four outs that complicate things, and then only because it's a monster pot, so we have the odds.

[Brian]

Hi guys,

LP had 77. So I was drawing at a 2 outer on the Turn. But, the pot was extremely large, and I *DID* have outs, so I am still not sure about the whole raising the Turn and folding to a 3-bet thing...

-Brian

[JohnShaft]

I'm not given the super large pot, and your coupla/four outs (which I sorta overlooked). But it did show how thin you were drawing.

Incidentally I was figuring later it didn't seem like he had Turned the Flush. Logic would say he would have checkraised the Flop, expecting your bet, and not bet out, expecting your Raise.

[NLfool]

I know some may like Ax suited in these low limit games but I'm surprised no one has mentioned that to avoid such a thing just fold A9s preflop. Again I don't play much limit anymore and people seem to play party in a different manner but it is a hand that creates too many complications. But if I'm in this hand I'd tend to agree raising the turn and checking the river but I see that much more at higher limits as a 3 bet turn in mid-high limits means a little more.

[JohnShaft]

It's A9s after FIVE *limpers* though Fish. Folding that has got to be *clearly* -EV.
I'm not a fan of Ace-Rag suited like some. But man that doesn't not make it plain profitable in a multi-way field. And from the Button. Clearly a pretty good spot to be in.

[Brian]

Hi JohnShaft,

I am not sure how BiggestFish made his way over to these boards, but I got into a rather detailed argument with him in Mid-High Stakes about how JJ and TT actually are good hands. He claims that they do not make very much money at all and are very overrated.

A9s is clearly a very profitable hand in the CO after 5 limpers. Don't try to argue with him. :/ I can't believe this dude has 170 posts and spouts out so much nonsense.

-Brian