Making a move in 4/8.

I had been playing for about an hour already and was down about $70. The table was loose with a couple of players showing aggressive tendencies. I had a couple of premium hands cracked. In these cases I was early, UTG or next to UTG (on the left). One time I had aces and decided to attempt a limp-reraise. About 4 of the last 5 hands were raised btf. So I decided to go for it. There was no raise. Then I check-raised the flop, which was coordinated. The turn brought eminent doom to my hand and I folded. At that time the other players began to discuss how my betting didn't make sense. They berated me a bit. I just smiled and acted dumb - felt a little dumb too. So, I think my image was not good.


But then this hand turns up. I have KQs in middle-late position. I limp. The guy on my left raises (I think he's better than average player for 4/8). 6 players, including me, see the flop for two bets. The flop is ragedy with a J. It's checked to the pre-flop raiser who bets. Everyone calls. I called with my two overcards and a backdoor flush possibility. The turn is a J and it's checked all around. The river is another rag and it's checked to the btf raiser. He bets. Evveryone folds to me. I raise - pure bluff ... I have K high. The bettor ponders for a bit, shows me his 5 (he has middle pair). Asks if I can beat it, I ignore him. He folds.


This seemed like a PERFECT opportunity to try a move like this. Was it?

I think you didnt open limp, cause that would be terrible IMO. Would be easier to comment on this hand if you made clear who limped in front of you, and who cold called the raise. With quite a few limpers in front of you you want to raise KQs yourself in middle/late position IMO.


For the bluff... I think it's a very risky play (you shouldnt make it often), and doubt if it shows profit. I dont think (if he's a good player) that he figures you for a J, because you would probably have bet the flop (hoping he would raise) to protect your hand. Same thing for the turn...you probably dont want it checked around on the turn if you had a jack (and would probably take a shot at the pot if you had a pocket pair), and therefore you would probably bet in late position.


The pot is quite big (12 BB) so your getting 1:6 for the bluff. So the bluff would be profitable if he would fold more then 1 time out of 6. Against a good player, who has a decent read on you, I dont think this is the case.


Regards

You're getting 1:5 on the bluff (when you check-raise the pot is 10BB). And note he's getting 1:12 on a call.


Regards

I think your move was fine. You could also bet the river yourself. All who checked the turn and river have no jack. I think there is a good chance you can steal in your late position.


Anders

I dont think this "seemingly good player" played it well. IMO he played it poorly. First: what hand does he raise with preflop containing a 5? (only A5s maybe, but I dont think that's a strong raise).


Furthermore when it's checked to him on the river, I cant see one reason to bet. Lesser hands wouldnt probably pay you off, better hands will call, and (as you did) you might even get bluff raised. Very poor river play IMO.


Regards

Are you sure there was no possibilty of a flush or straight on the board? If not, I can't believe the guy folded! But then again I also can't believe he pre-flop raised with a damn 5!

I think check-raising here is what could win you the pot, but you also risk more. By betting straight out on the river, low pairs (now two pairs) could easily keep you honest once the top card pairs.


Raising here will sometimes work, but as I said it's risky.


I think it was a terrible move by BTF raisor to bet the river then fold to a raise, given his hand (two pair jacks and fives, kicker not really important at all). The action on the turn combined with the 'blank' river (when the top pair pairs on the river after a round-check on the turn, it's actually likely to be the 'biggest' blank you could ever wish for).


He should either: Check it down with pretty good hope of taking down a fairly nice pot after yet another round-check,


Or: If he has *enough* belief in his hand, bet it and be prepared to pay off a raise. Who knows, it might induce a bluff against a good player (as it did), who knows that many hands will pay off one bet on the river in a hand like this (with much money in due to pre-flop action but weak hands as the community card comes as the turn action suggests), but that bluff-raising could win it.


The only exception is if said player is in a game with lots of weak calling stations who will pay off with many worse hands, and only raise very good hands on the river (which any Jack is in this spot, although a bad player seems to think trips are a 'very good hand' under almost any circumstance and with any kicker, it actually happens to be strong here).


lars

Thanks for the responses.


I think the key is that when the boards top card, a J, pairs on the turn and nobody bets. This indicates that nobody has a J. Unless someone is trying to induce a bluff or has a serious case of FEAR. On the river when a blank falls, there's still multiple opponents, so a bluff into many opponents I think would be foolhardy. But I also think it's something the LP btf raiser would do. And that's what he did - but he did have middle pair. Remember, he's on my immediate left. So, when all opponents fold to his bet, I now have only one opponent, an opponent that I believe is too loose and too aggressive, but also pays attention and has noticed that I am pretty tight. The combination of these factors is what told me to bluff-raise.


-Michael