3-6: UTG uphill against overcard and flush

Here's a hand I just played with an (I thought) pretty tough turn decision that I'd like some help with.


I raise UTG with red JJ, and get called by three loose, poor players: Early Middle, the Button, and the small blind.


The flop comes Kd 6c 2d. I bet out (anyone for check-raising here?) And get 3 callers.


The turn is the 8d. What to do now? These cats could have _anything_. I think my choices are bet and fold to a raise, check call, and check-fold, and I hate all three.


Some thoughts:


* Normally the fact that I have the 3rd nut flush draw wouldn't be worth the time it takes to discount it, but not here.


* Normally I feel I have to bet out, to prevent being pushed off the best hand by a bet and raise by the opponents, but not here. Noramlly I can fold without a care if I'm raised here multiway; if someone want to raise a protected pot with a flush draw here, bless 'em, I'll fight back when I got more ammo. But here I gotta call a raise, possibly drawing dead.


* Becasue thes guys are so loose, giving a free card is a real concern. A,Q, hitting thier kicker to a 2,6,8...


* The any-two-cards-odds of a K being out is about 1-(41/44)^6 = 34%. Adjusting it upwards because they fold preflop to a raise sometimes, and they called the flop bet, gets me to a 66% gut feeling. The flop has 6.5 BB's in it, and with my half live diamond draw, I've got some serious equity.


I decided to check, and call one bet but not two. It was checked around to button who bet, all call.


The river was Th: : [ 6c 2d Kd 8d Th ]


Now what. I did what I always do when baffled. Check and call. Does anyone fold to the button's river bet? Remember, I've warned you umpteen times how loose he is...


Please help me out, I still can't find a turn decision I like. That's why I'm thinking about a check raise on the flop... maybe then the hand gets easier to play.


Thanks for your time,


zooey

It was checked around on river and I won.


Opponents held, on [ 6c 2d Kd 8d Th ] ( I warned you):


sb: As 2c EM: Ac 8s but: 8c 5c


zooey

Let me take issue with one point: If you are up against opponents who are so loose they will call any hand that can make 2nd pair or better, then giving "free" cards is NOT a consern: your main consern is getting value.


Yes, don't fold for the reason's you gave.


Yes, check-raising loose assertive types when you have a vulnerable pair is a top strategy. A good but uncommon betting pattern is to bet the flop and check-raise the turn, something that you should have done in THIS spot: when middle does NOT bet and SB just calls button's bet, the theoretical value of your hand has gone up quite a bit compared to when you checked the turn; that is the number of prospective opponents that have you beat went from 3 to 1.


Yes, paranoid confusion usually means check-and-call, but lets not let that feeling prevent you from looking for the right play. When you get that sinking feeling, imagine Johnny Moss whispering "raise" in your ear; now try to figure out why he said that. If you can't think of one go ahead and check-and-call. If you CAN think of one, well now you can evaluate it with a clearer head.


- Louie

Gotta give you credit, Louie, you've got a great way of explaining things.


I can't believe I didn't even concieve of check raising the turn. I think that's because it really didn't exist as an option until the perfect scario of the button betting and the sb just calling, and I just wasn't thinking quick enough on the draw.


It makes all sorts of great things happen:


*It hits those one card diamond draws hard, maybe even dropping the Q.


*It has a small but real chance of getting a weak K into the muck, either now or on the river.


*And best of all, I don't sheepishly feel like a tight-weak stick in the mud as the dealer shuffles for the next hand.


Thanks for the lesson,


zooey

.... Nelly. There are LOTS of situations that you are SUPPOSED to play like a "sheep stuck in the mud". That is a BAD reason to raise.

x