open straight draw w/ two overcards...how'd I do?

[ProfLupin]

Party Poker 0.50/1 (10 handed)
ProfLupin has K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is Button

EP1 limps, MP1 limps, CO limps, ProfLupin raises, SB folds, BB calls, EP1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls

Flop(10 SB): T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, EP1 bets, MP1 calls, CO folds, ProfLupin raises, BB calls, EP1 calls, MP1 folds

Turn(14 BB): 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, EP1 bets, ProfLupin calls, BB folds

River(16 BB): Q/images/graemlins/club.gif

EP1 bets, ProfLupin raises, EP1 calls

[Trix]

I think you played it perfect.

[Styles]

IMHO the PFR is wrong, it might be close.

per HPFAP p.32

"... if there are already callers ,only normally raise with hands in Groups 1-3, and sometimes with Group 4 hands (except if there are many players, do not raise with high un-suited cards)"

Your raise with KQo is hoping to knock some people out and thin field. On the button, unless you had 1 limper, and thought you could get heads-up I would call. The 3 limpers are going to call and the blinds know this too, so they are getting odds to call here with almost anything. KQo is not a raise against 5 opponents, IMHO

Once you got a break with a good flop, you definitely raise the flop for alot of reasons. When he continues to bet out I like the turn call. I think the queen on the river changes this from a fold to a call, not to a raise.

Just my opinion, maybe others will disagree.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO the PFR is wrong, HPFAP p.32

"... if there are already callers ,only normally raise with hands in Groups 1-3, and sometimes with Group 4 hands (except if there are many players, do not raise with high un-suited cards)"


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the PF raise is fine, although I think that calling is O.K. as well. I would not consider three limpers to be equal to "many players." In addition, raising may allow you to knock out the blinds, where it is possible that a lone ace on the board is lurking.

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO the PFR is wrong, HPFAP p.32

"... if there are already callers ,only normally raise with hands in Groups 1-3, and sometimes with Group 4 hands (except if there are many players, do not raise with high un-suited cards)"


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the PF raise is fine, although I think that calling is O.K. as well. I would not consider three limpers to be equal to "many players." In addition, raising may allow you to knock out the blinds, where it is possible that a lone ace on the board is lurking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 3 is not many. IMHO it's wrong to assume 3 "players". He will have at least 4 and probably 5 opponents. 6 players seeing the flop is many, IMHO.

Where does many start for you? everyone else? I usually consider 5 or more opponents, multi and the beginning of many.

[ramjam]

I would expect the raise on the river to be negative EV. You are at least safe from being re-raised by most players who will fear the nuts given your action to date.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree 3 is not many. IMHO it's wrong to assume 3 "players". He will have at least 4 and probably 5 opponents. 6 players seeing the flop is many, IMHO.

Where does many start for you? everyone else? I usually consider 5 or more opponents, multi and the beginning of many.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't imagine that S&M, or nearly anyone else for that matter, would assume that one or both blinds will be coming along for a raise. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But telling a poster that it is wrong to raise in this situation is just plain wrong, especially when all you have to back up your position is a book passage that does not appear to even apply to this situation.

If you are going to make bold assetions such as "it is wrong to do this," then try to offer some reasoning as to why you believe it may be wrong.

Edit: Whereas I see from rereading your original post that you actually did offer some of your analysis, I also know that you must have edited your response, since this extra information was not part of your original response. I'm glad you took the time to give this some more thought, although I still believe that either raising or calling are both fine.

[ProfLupin]

With the early position limp, I was thinking AJ or KJ which I beat, or JT which I was scared of. When the river showed, he thought for about 5 seconds before betting out. I figured he didn't like the card, so I raised. I was going to call originally when I saw my queen.

Anyways, he calls and flips over J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and takes down the pot with his flopped two pair. Then I took down a few notes /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ProfLupin]

Remember, that HEFAP is for higher level games where limpers usually hold decent limping hands. At .5/1.00 party, the limps can mean pretty much any two cards. (I had my EP opponent pegged to be a fairly judicious hand selector, but I guess he has a weakness for anything suited). Anyways the point is, with KQo on the button I like raising and making the weak hands pay to see the flop. I hope that people will fold, but I don't really mind if they all call me either. However, if you play like this you have to be willing to give up your hand if the flop misses even though you are the pre-flop raiser.

I hope this is a decent explaination why I raise here even though it's a familly pot which KQo doesn't like as much.

[spamuell]

When the river showed, he thought for about 5 seconds before betting out. I figured he didn't like the card, so I raised.

Do you often find assumptions based on the amount of time a player takes are correct?

I think they are of negligible use, if you plan on raising, raise, if you plan on calling, call - there could be many reasons why he waited before betting. Maybe he was making a sandwich, or the phone went, or he was reading something online (not 2+2 though, juding by his hand selection /images/graemlins/tongue.gif), maybe he just has a laggy connection. There are a multitude of reasons for his delay other than whether or not he liked the river (maybe he even waited to raise just to make you think he had a bad hand).

I don't think that basing your action on this is a reliable play.

[ProfLupin]

You are probably right, although he had been very prompt about his bets up to that point. It turns out my read was correct, he didn't much like that river card.

As for whether I make use of timing tells? I have found them to be more reliable then you might think. Auto-raises and calls are especially usefull for me.

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I agree 3 is not many. IMHO it's wrong to assume 3 "players". He will have at least 4 and probably 5 opponents. 6 players seeing the flop is many, IMHO.

Where does many start for you? everyone else? I usually consider 5 or more opponents, multi and the beginning of many.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't imagine that S&M, or nearly anyone else for that matter, would assume that one or both blinds will be coming along for a raise. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But telling a poster that it is wrong to raise in this situation is just plain wrong, especially when all you have to back up your position is a book passage that does not appear to even apply to this situation.

If you are going to make bold assetions such as "it is wrong to do this," then try to offer some reasoning as to why you believe it may be wrong.

Edit: Whereas I see from rereading your original post that you actually did offer some of your analysis, I also know that you must have edited your response, since this extra information was not part of your original response. I'm glad you took the time to give this some more thought, although I still believe that either raising or calling are both fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be curious how you think the passage is not related?It's playing un-suited high cards in late position. That seems like EXACTLY the situation he was in.

Is it common for weak players in the big blind to fold getting 9.5:1 at .50/$1 limits? I've never see anyone voluntarily limp/fold to a single bet either.

[ElSapo]

I don't like the river raise. You raised pre-flop and on the flop and he's still coming. But definitely call. The pre-flop raise is fine.

[Ed Miller]

I don't like the river raise. He hesitated because the queen put four to a straight on board.