Odds too thin on this hand?

[Griffin]

I made a questionable call and got some "coaching" for it. I agree that my turn call was probably thin. What do you think is the correct play for this situation?

2/4, loose table. No strong reads on anyone yet except BB who is a solid player. Main opponent in this hand (MP) usually doesn't play complete junk hands, but does like face cards.

I'm UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I raise, EP calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls. Six to the flop.

Flop (12sb): 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, I check, EP checks, MP bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, I call, EP calls. Five to the turn.

If I were acting after the bettor, would it be correct to raise here and take a free card on the turn if I don't improve?

Turn (8.5bb): T/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, I check, EP checks, MP bets, button folds, SB folds, I make my thin call, EP calls. Three to the river.

I'm getting 9.5:1 on a 10.5:1 shot to 4 Queens, one of which might be dirty. Also, a check-raise by EP was possible.

River (11bb): Q/images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, EP folds, MP calls.

After the pot slide, MP types "Call-call till the river kills".

I figured that the possibility of it getting checked through was greater than the possibility of a river-made flush, so I bet instead of check-call. Was that a mistake too?

How should I have played differently?

Results and a funny side note (in white):

<font color="white">MP flashed Jd Td and MHIG.

In the very next hand I'm BB with K5o. No raise so I see the flop with opponent and about 4 others. Flop comes AK5, I bet, opponent and others call. Turn is another 5, I bet, opponent and others call. River is the last 5, I bet, opponent and others call. When my hand shows, opponent types "WTF?"

I thought about typing "Call-call till the river kills", but didn't want to be mean. :-) </font>

[lunchmeat]

First off, don't worry about table coaches. They're usually not great players. I've found that most of the time when someone feels compelled to point out your "inferior" play, they're a steamer trying to make themselves feel better about their own loss.

I think you played the hand fine (although I like check/raising the river). I like checking the flop because you 1) aren't going to make hands like bottom pair and gutshots fold with your bet &amp; 2) aren't going to be bluffed out of the pot because you showed weakness because there are too many people in the pot for a bluff to have any chance of succeeding.

In last position taking a free card is a good play, as long as there aren't any aggressive players (particularly loose/agreesive players) in the pot.

The turn also seems fine. You have 3 clean outs, and possibly as many as 10 outs. I tend not to worry about runner, runner flushes.

I'd go for a river check/raise unless the bettor is a very timid player who will likely check anything that isn't the nuts.

[Mike]

You know you are chasing on the flop, lucky(?) and chasing on the turn, and hoping for the correct ending at the river? Are you really comfortable with this type of play?

The only cards you really want on the turn would be Q,T hearts as they are the only good outs for you. When a club falls on the turn you may take into account there may be a flush draw and adjust your odds accordingly. The same situation would arise for any of the suits except hearts. This would make your hand unplayable I think?

What can you put four to the turn on? They must have overpairs, top pair, or draws. Any of those hands are in at least an equal if not better position than your hand. I am surprised no one claimed to have a nine.

You made your hand at the river, but it wasn't a solid play imo. I wouldn't try it again not knowing the players. Sounds like a good game to be in, but a little less chasing goes a long way towards a nice win. I have to agree, it was very thin to negative.

[jrobb83]

You are getting pretty thin odds on the turn, but a call is still correct. Your outs to a pair are probably no good because of the high possibility of the straight and number of people still in the pot. So you are getting 9.5-1 immediate odds, and proably at least 10.5-1 implied odds, as you figure at least one person to put in a bet on the river if your card hits. I wouldn't worry that much about the flush card, as it was runner runner. I like betting the river because since both the straight and flush card, not to mention overcard just hit, anyone who had been betting a jack in that spot is likely just to check it down.

As an aside: anybody like betting the flop in that situation hoping for someone to raise behind you and drive people out? It cleans up your outs to a pair, and you are going to put in a bet here anyway. You need to have pretty good knowledge of your opponents acting immediately after you to do this, but I like it. It thins your pot odds, but increases your chance of winning a decent sized pot it it works. What do you think??

[Griffin]

You know you are chasing on the flop, lucky(?) and chasing on the turn, and hoping for the correct ending at the river? Are you really comfortable with this type of play?

No, I'm not comfortable when I'm chasing. However, I do my best to only chase when the odds warrant it and I think the hand I'm chasing to will be a winner. That's why I question my turn call because I'm not sure I had the odds or that my hand would be good.

The only cards you really want on the turn would be Q,T hearts as they are the only good outs for you.

I'm not sure I understand this. On the flop I considered my A and K outs as good. Yes, MP could have AJ or KJ, but I'm not going to put him on these hands just yet. At this point I'm giving him credit for a Jack.

What can you put four to the turn on?

For this I apologize, as I should have specified that the table was Pacific Poker. Four people will see the turn for one bet almost no matter what they're holding. And yes, it was a very good game to be in. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I understand what you are saying, and obviously agree to some extent or I wouldn't have posted the hand. When the odds are marginal AND I have a draw to the nuts, I have trouble letting go for one bet. It doesn't happen very often, but it could be a leak nonetheless.

[Griffin]

I'd go for a river check/raise unless the bettor is a very timid player who will likely check anything that isn't the nuts. -- Lunchmeat

I thought about it, but I've had my checkraise attempts whiff so many times that I'm a little gunshy to try one now. Also, if MP just has a pair of Jacks, then I can see him checking it through given the flush, straight, and overpair possibilities. Finally, if EP did catch a runner-runner flush, then I would get 3-bet after my checkraise. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif Unlikely, but it pushed me over to betting instead of CRing.

As an aside: anybody like betting the flop in that situation hoping for someone to raise behind you and drive people out? -- jrobb83

At some tables that might work, but not at this one. I had KTo in the bb once and when the flop came K high I bet every street. Was called down by someone holding AK. Not just at this table, but at Pacific in general if I PF raise any nonpair and the flop misses me, I check and call based on odds. I have to have a good read that betting out will accomplish what you suggest before I will try it. Anyone agree? Disagree?

[Mike]

Okay, how about if you try this? Take a deck of cards and deal out ten players or whatever the table count was giving yourself your hand. Give your playing opponents whatever you think they would be holding to stay with you as long they did, be realistic. Deal out the flop as it fell. Deal out the turn and river through the deck or shuffle it up each time and deal it out. How did you do? Are the odds really there for your hand over a number of tries?

[Mike]

Ooops you are right, I was thinking straight only, Ace or King may be good outs. The problem is though your opponents as you say could be holding anything.

[ScottTheFish]

I think the turn call is fine. Personally against really bad players, I allow myself to fudge the odds a little when I'm trying for gutshots, overcards, etc. due to higher implied odds if I hit.

Plus, against anyone decent you kind of figure if they cold call 2 preflop, they have some high cards...but in these kind of games they could just as easily have 93o. So I would see no reason not to count most of my overcard outs.

5 people cold calling a UTG raise...that's a good table! /images/graemlins/grin.gif