Overpair Played Poorly?

[Utah]

Lil' .50/1.00 Pokerstars NL

I'm UTG+1
JJ
5 limpers take the flop

Flop comes 6,9,10rainbow

SB Bet 3
I make it 10 to go
Player to my left calls
Everyone else folds

We both have 90 more in front of us

turn is a 3

I bet 25
He raises me 68
I call

He shows down 9,10 for two pair and takes the pot

Turn call wrong?

Note: I had made several significant raises on the turn in the previous hour and someone came over the top of me and I had to lay down. This player had reraised my significant raise several times. So he was well aware of my supposed propensity to laydown to all-in bets. He was also a loose player. I thought 10,X or J,Q were possible hands.

[Jester999]

This is something I constantly have to work on in my game. You and I play at the same site and at the same level and I believe that 99.9% of the time someone makes a play like this they've got a pretty big hand and an overpair simply will not hold up. I might be more tempted than usual to call in your position because you limped preflop and someone might be inclined to get aggressive with TPTK but I still think the play is to lay it down.

With that said, yesterday I was dealt a big pocket pair on 3 occasions within in an hour and raised preflop. I usually got one or two callers. Never did the board pair. I usually led out pot sized or raised their bet pot sized. In each case, someone came back over the top of me and I thought, 'set'. Each time I got it all in (duh) and I was right everytime. For all the times I've called in this situation I've rarely won.

When I'm playing my best, I simply dump these hands, type 'nh' in the chat line, and reload telling myself that a mature player can lay down a big hand.

[Fistdantilus]

If you have TPTK/overpair and someone wants to get it all in with you, generally the correct play is to fold. When he called your raise on the flop, that should have sent warnings to you. As weak as it may sound, checking the turn and thinking about calling a river bet would be a better play. Another factor is that you are both pretty deep (for online standards). With smaller stacks this would be OK, but definitely not with the stacks that you had. Sometimes you are going to fold the best hand, and you have to be OK with that.

Fistdantilus

[Utah]

Yeah, I agree and I should have laid down.

The only mitigating factor is that I had just been forced several times to lay down in this situation. The guy I was up against was agressive and a bluff was entirely possible with this guy. The problem was that my hand still wasnt strong enough.

Also, if I am going to committ my stack like that I should have pushed in on the turn. Maybe, with the straight possibility out there, he would have laid down. Doubtful, but still better than calling meekly.

[Jester999]

[ QUOTE ]
The only mitigating factor is that I had just been forced several times to lay down in this situation. The guy I was up against was agressive and a bluff was entirely possible with this guy. The problem was that my hand still wasnt strong enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I think it's definitely more problematic. And there are certainly players that I have notes on against whom I'll make different plays. I've played almost exclusively on Pokerstars since July (I think 40k-50k hands if my numbers are correct) and the 'lay down' is just my default play in that situation. You'll notice though that I ran into it 3 times yesterday without making the correct play and it cost me close to $200. So, I've definitely got a lot to learn and discipline is an ongoing struggle for me. I'm in no position to criticize. Just banter between two stars regulars. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

In any case, if you think you knew your man and your hand might be good I can definitely understand getting it all in on the turn as an alternative. Also, something tells me if you were playing the same hand in a weekly game live with the same players that it might not be so black and white. I'm trying to start a low buy in NLHE game with some guys at my country club, so hopefuly I'll get to find out soon.

[bunky9590]

If you freakin raised preflop to like 4X blind fro UTG with your Jacks ,T9 isn't there to stomp your nuts in the first place.

Nuff said.

[Walter]

Some thoughts:

Your pre-flop limp is not good, especially if you are then willing to pay off when someone draws you out. I'd rather play jacks heads up or three-way against the blinds. If everyone comes you risk either overcards, or many draws/two pair hands if there are 3 cards ten and below on the flop.

Wait to make a stand on someone until you have position and there is no overcall of your flop raise. You will lose a lot more from one bad call then from allowing people to steal some relatively small pots from you. If you can get them to make big raises out of line, you will trap them and get their stack.

You limped from EP+1. Is anyone going to believe that you have a made straight?

[scrub]

I don't think limping them is terrible in all situations. But only if you are capable of playing them after the flop in an unraised pot. Calling a push with deep stacks on a coordinated board from a player who cold-called your raise on the flop is not how to play JJ after the flop in an unraised pot.

If a player is constantly snapping you off on the turn, then switch gears for a while and don't bet the flop and turn as thin when he's in the pot. Wait to pick him off with a hand that can withstand action. If he's not just snapping you off with huge bets, but is also betting the turn too often when checked to, check call with your decent but vulnerable hands and catch his bluffs.

scrub

[Wayfare]

From my perspective if you limp JJ you are more or less giving everyone an oppertunity to catch a weird two pair or what have you, and therefore you really need to be wary on all boards that someone hit two, set, whatever.

If you are raising such that there are not odds to catch a set ($20 range with your stacks) than you can generally eliminate all weird two-pairs and sets.

However, the all-in call is a terrible one to make with this situation, because they could just as easily be making the same play as you with QQ/KK/AA and you would be drawing almost dead.

If you want to play your jacks strongly pre-flop then so be it; its a strong hand. However, if you are going to limp them you better wait until you catch a set before you are willing to committ your entire stack to the hand. Jacks unimproved is definately not strong enough to successfully trap with, and if you are not willing to fold to massive shows of strength then you are going to get stacked pretty often.

[Utah]

if you are not willing to fold to massive shows of strength then you are going to get stacked pretty often

Again, this is normally an easy laydown. This was a very situational play against a specific player. Still, it was a bad call.

I dont think a limp early with JJ is a bad play. I would rather have a lot of players and catch a J on the flop and double through. Hard to make much moeny with JJ early with a raise

[Utah]

Lets say you raise to 4x. Then what?

If you get no calls then you win diddly. If you get called by 1 or 2 then you are in a tough spot if a J does not flop, unless there are no overcards.

If you get raised, now you are in a really tough spot.

[Wayfare]

Well, you trapped yourself by doing exactly what you said you weren't going to do: you said you want to limp it and then stack someone when a J falls, but a J didn't fall and you allowed yourself to get stacked instead.

If you are going to limp jacks (I do like 30% of the time), then you can *really* only play it if you improve or if you sense weakness with zero (or maybe one) overcard. No, you aren't going to make HUGE amounts of money if you raise it pre-flop, but you are going to gain a lot of information about what other people have and about where you stand on the flop. Usually, if you raise it to 4x bb and you get callers, you can be pretty safe when no overcard falls. When you limp, you have no idea when someone hits a monster, and franky, a pair of jacks isn't going to hold up on the river a lot against more than a couple people unless a jack flops. You are 25:1 to catch a jack on the turn and the river, so you should probably get away from the hand when an overcard hits or someone shows a lot of strength.

You will also definately have to apply this to AA/KK, because most people with small pocket pairs will stay for even a medium raise if they think they can stack you when their trips hit. This is especially true when you have deep stacks.

[Utah]

Mostly agreed. As I said, I played it poorly. I let myself get too clouded by the player and the action in previous hands. While this is important to do, you cant let it blind you to the hand.

I still am not crazy about raising JJ up front early in a cash game.

[JohnG]

Call or fold on the flop.

[Trefo]

I like the raise........as you said the only player who's going to call a 4x big bet is usually AA, KK, QQ, and then what........that's why i like a smaller raise......Tough lay down.......but usually you can wait on a guy like that who's stealing to catch a monster and then you'll double up.
It's not a terrible play but JJ's are pretty weak for that sized bet.

[bunky9590]

Then what? You have an IDEA what you are up against.

No offense but not raising with JJ and giving cheap looks at the flop is just insane!

I know you need to brush up on this and I'm not perfect either, you can't limp reraise with it, you have to raise to bust out the crap hands.

Now while i have the propensity to raise with a lot ore hands in NL than the next guy, JJ UTG is an auto raise for me and i would assue for 99% of the people here.

As far as if I get re-raised, I have to see how much the re-raise is, and who made the re-raise. sometimes I call, sometimes I push, sometimes I fold. very player and stack dependent.

if you're waiting for AA and KK to raise, you are giving away TMI. You'll also get no action on your raises.

As far as winning diddly? I'll take the blinds. Better than giving people cheap looks to run you down.

Doyle Brunson says that in an unraised pot you have to play very carefully. You don't ant to go broke in a "nothing" pot.

[Lucky]

JJ UTG in NL just aren't that strong. You probably have the best hand, but you have horrible position. This HORRIBLE position is why the SB standards are so much more stringent in NL than limit. You don't want to play drawing hands up front and i don't like to play "wondering" hands.

I limp with JJ in EP and go from there. With no overcards, I'll bet 3/4 of the pot on the flop and probably fire again on the turn. If someone plays back, I fold. If you raise preflop and get callers, you are more committed, mentally and in terms of chips.

[Flushed]

I don't think JJ is a strong hand in EP, NL. Even with a raise, all sorts of PP will call you and possibly suited connecters LP.

You can limp: if a jack hits, you're golden, if you have an overpair, try to bet out draws but keep the pot small. With a small pot you can call down bluffs from "loose, aggressive, trigger-happy guy" and you'll make money from top pair betting into your overpair. I don't like committing a large amount of chips with overpairs: if you call, you may very well be behind, and, if you end up folding to a big bet on the river, then you look tight-weak. It's a lose-lose situation. The main idea is to keep hands worse than yours in the pot, not to bet out worse hands and to pay off the one hand that is better.

[Burk585]

you definitely should not limp with JJ UTG+1. raise at least 3-4 times the BB. JJ does not like to play a 5 handed flop no matter what cards fall. if you raise preflop, you might get 1 or 2 callers, and JJ is fairly easy to play now. if they call your preflop raise you have to figure them on a big pair or AK. bet the ragged flop and you should know what to do from there. by limping you have no idea what they might be calling or raising with after the flop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif