Part I: Two Good Players ... What Are Their Hands?

It's a 3/6 game. Two good players, sitting side by side, both stuck about $90, starving for pots.


In this hand, player A is in the big blind, player B is UTG. Player A is a bit looser pre-flop, although he may be slightly better at post-flop play than B.


Player B limps UTG, and a couple of players limp after him. A middle position player raises, and there are a few cold-callers. BB calls, as does the rest of the players yet to act. There are 6 players and 12 sb in the pot.


The flop comes 8 7 3 with two hearts. Player A bets. Player B calls. The limpers between him and the preflop raiser call. The preflop aggressor raises again, and the players behind him fold. Player A calls, but player B now 3-bets. The next player calls, one folds, and the raiser calls. Player A now caps, and the remaining active players call. There are 4 players and 30sb in the pot.


The turn brings the Kh. Player A bets, and player B raises. Both players fold behind, and player A just calls. 2 players, 19bb in the pot.


The river brings the 7d. Player A bets, player B raises. Player A just calls.


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The first part of this is going to be a hand reading exercise. What hands do you put the two players on?

Ok.


Player A holds 88. Nut tight.


Player B holds 77. Quads.


We'll assume that neither of them hold hearts, although to tell the truth, I cannot remember exactly whether this is true. I seem to recall the 8h on the flop, but don't remember which 7 was on the flop.


So, given the action as described, how well did each of the players play their hands?


I'll reveal who players A and B were in a subsequent post, lest I bias any of the responses. For those of you who know, please keep it quiet...

8-8 for UTG,


Qh-xh for Big blind, maybe 3-3

i like BB's turn bet because UTG's expected raise charges players behind, like the original raiser 2 BB to play on with the naked Ah.


I don't like UTG's raise here because he is probably behind here, one of the people who weathered the storm on the flop you'd think would have a heart draw, and it appears BB was jamming with a good heart draw gary carson style, or has a set as well!


I dont like the BB's river bet because UTG's play screams "SET!" and since BB himself has 8-8 that only leaves 7-7 because I am assuming a "good player" would be much less likely to play 3-3 UTG.


Of course, I misread both hands from the description, but I knew UTG had a set, and if I knew his set wasn't 8-8 cuz thats what I had, then I would know it was 7-7, know what i mean, vern?


i thought maybe BB was getting fancy with a flush draw...

You and Jim from last night? Seems a bit unlikely since you were both up when I left. However, I'm going to ignore that and assume it was you two since I didn't see any other good players on that table.


Anyways, I'd say something like: UTG: A-10 of hearts BB: 33


Your limp is ok from the BB with A-10s. Jim would certainly call a raise from the BB with 33 against 5 opponents getting 9-1 immediate odds on hitting his set.


On the flop, Jim would certainly bet his set. Once everyone calls back to you, its quite likely you would three bet, as you are getting plenty of odds to raise for value. The only question is whether or not this raise will knock people out. Probably not, so I can see you raising with nut heart draw here. Jim would then absolutely cap it with a set.


On the turn, you make your hand but Jim will always bet at a flushed board with a made hand (as will I) and if raised, thats life. No free cards on three tone boards! You raise, having made your hand. Jim now is fairly sure he's beaten but has outs.


On the river, he spikes, but he's a bit worried you may have flopped a set of 8's so he just calls.


I'm guessing Jim took this one down (assuming it was you two). Now off to check the results..

After a year of renovations and delays, the Palace poker room at West Edmonton Mall is finally open. After all that fuss and "bally-hoo", all they could produce is a tiny 5 table little room. They are now unique in Edmonton (and Alberta I believe) as being non-smoking and also 24 hours. The room is pleasant except for the duct tape covering the all too reflective crome siding. So far the dealers and houseman have been excellent.


After approximately 5 hours of playing $3-6 I'm stuck about a hundred. Not getting a lot of hands to play, and a few suckouts too, but I'm feeling great (thank you Zen and the Art of Poker).


And so, this hand occurs...


Player B limps UTG, and a couple of players limp after him. A middle position player raises, and there are a few cold-callers. BB calls, as does the rest of the players yet to act. There are 6 players and 12 sb in the pot.


I am the poor little BB squeezing pocket 8's, and I've made a mental note of Player B limping UTG as it is Shaw.


Shaw announces he's thinking of a flop, and I say "Me too" and...


The flop comes 8 7 3 with two hearts.


I announce "Ahhh, that's my flop" and wager 3 betting units. Shaw does the old head tilt and calls.


The late-position preflop raiser is tilting so I expect him to raise the flop here and the pot will become nice and LARGE. A bunch call to him and he sparks it up on schedule. I now smooth call to represent hearts (thereby inducing mistakes by opponents) and also planning on dropping the hammer on the turn as I expect the tilting flop raiser will bet if a blank falls.


To my surprise I hear the booming "RERAISE!" from my left neighbor, Shaw, and I think to myself "I've got him, mwhahahaha." Rattle those bushes a little and Dave Shaw can't resist but to come out. I am now fairly certain that Dave has a set of 7's. Everybody calls to me and I put the table on "The Plan" of four easy payments of $3 to see the turn card. Everybody calls my reraise.


The turn is not to my liking, the King of hearts, but I of course bet out. Since I am also representing high hearts I believe low hearts will only call here anyways, if indeed anybody even has a flush. The pot is big so I have to bet in case somebody folds the only small heart (BTW I did not have the 8h).


Again I am surprised to hear the thunderous "RAAAISE!!" from Shaw. Being of the extreme low-variance school of thought I did not think Shaw would jam the flop with a flush draw but perhaps I was wrong. Everybody folds to me and I of course call. Shaw being an intelligent opponent and the pot being large I plan on calling the river as well.


Ah haa! The river fills me up with the 7. I bet out since it is obvious that I have a full house (I noticed myself hesitating) and Shaw will have to call me anyways, and if he has hearts he probably won't bet.


For the third time he surprises me with a loud "TWELVE!" shot. Aw sh!t, I say to myself. Back to the original read of 7's and I can now only call with my almost nut full house :( As expected, he shows me quad 7's. And now you know... the rest... of the story...


P.S. #1: I almost enjoy losing to quads. I mean, it sucks to lose a pot and all, but I'm going to have to lose a pot (and get badly beated) some time, so it might as well be exciting and two very good hands.


P.S. #2: I managed to keep playing well and get some good hands after and managed to dig myself out of the hole for a modest win, less than my win rate but still a good night (thank you Zen :).


P.S. #3: Interesting statistic: after many many hours of playing together that is the first time I've ever lost a showdown to Dave Shaw. In fact, I think we've had only two showdowns where the river was bet and the other called, and I won both with a hidden set. This is due to the fact that Shaw is of the ultra-tight school and I am of the ultra-don't-put-in-chips-if-Shaw-is-betting school of thought :) Also he tends to avoid me as well.


Jim Roy jimroy@powersurfr.com

And now the equal time response from the opposition.


Player B limps UTG, and a couple of players limp after him. A middle position player raises, and there are a few cold-callers. BB calls, as does the rest of the players yet to act. There are 6 players and 12 sb in the pot.


I am the poor little BB squeezing pocket 8's, and I've made a mental note of Player B limping UTG as it is Shaw.


Pocket sevens is about the weakest hand I limp UTG with in this game. As Jim has noted, there's a couple of tilting opponents downtable, so the game, while very loose, is not quite passive enough to start limping with all pairs up front.


Shaw announces he's thinking of a flop, and I say "Me too" and...


The flop comes 8 7 3 with two hearts.


I announce "Ahhh, that's my flop" and wager 3 betting units. Shaw does the old head tilt and calls.


The late-position preflop raiser is tilting so I expect him to raise the flop here and the pot will become nice and LARGE. A bunch call to him and he sparks it up on schedule. I now smooth call to represent hearts (thereby inducing mistakes by opponents) and also planning on dropping the hammer on the turn as I expect the tilting flop raiser will bet if a blank falls.


I, too, have noticed the raiser is on crazy monkey tilt. I figure to smooth-call, trap some people, let him pop it, then decloak and fire when it gets back to me.


To my surprise I hear the booming "RERAISE!" from my left neighbor, Shaw, and I think to myself "I've got him, mwhahahaha." Rattle those bushes a little and Dave Shaw can't resist but to come out. I am now fairly certain that Dave has a set of 7's. Everybody calls to me and I put the table on "The Plan" of four easy payments of $3 to see the turn card. Everybody calls my reraise.


So, everything is going according to plan until Jim caps. I'm not certain whether he'd make the "utility time-saving" cap here, but this certainly shows some strength. He could be jamming on a hearts draw, but I'm starting to worry about set over set. At this point, if he has the set, it's 50/50 in my mind whether he's got 33 or 88.


The turn is not to my liking, the King of hearts, but I of course bet out. Since I am also representing high hearts I believe low hearts will only call here anyways, if indeed anybody even has a flush. The pot is big so I have to bet in case somebody folds the only small heart (BTW I did not have the 8h).


For the life of me I cannot recall whether I hold the 7h. All I remember is the beautiful seven of diamonds on the river. Naively, then, there's a 67% chance I've got the 7h in the hole.


Now, I've got Jim on 33, 88, or hearts of some denomination. I figure Jim could have me on a set or on hearts by my play. With any of his hands in this situation, I figure he'll bet.


There are two opponents left to act behind me. The first is the suckout king who got me stuck in the first place. He would have called all those bets on the flop with any two cards. Then there's the tilting player. I don't want to give either of them a cheap draw to a singleton high heart. As it stands, they have a massive overlay if I just call.


Now, as for what Jim will do if I raise ... well, he's likely going to call with 33. He may have a hard time 3-betting with 88. I think he even would have a hard reraise decision with queen high hearts or lower, as my play is consistent with jamming on a draw, and I limped UTG, so my hearts are going to be Ah-paint h. (KhQh is ruled out by the Kh on board.) So, I think I'm reasonably safe from getting played at unless I'm really badly beaten.


My plan was to raise, hoping to drive out the people behind. If reraised, I'm paying off to the end. If Jim just calls, which I consider to be very likely, the river is going to be checked down, unless I hit. So I get to the end for the same price as just calling down, plus by knocking players out I improve my chances of winning.


(Of course, if I do hold the 7h, then if I can drive out other singleton hearts behind me, I pick up some additional outs to win. I still have to check it down on the end though.)


Again I am surprised to hear the thunderous "RAAAISE!!" from Shaw. Being of the extreme low-variance school of thought I did not think Shaw would jam the flop with a flush draw but perhaps I was wrong. Everybody folds to me and I of course call. Shaw being an intelligent opponent and the pot being large I plan on calling the river as well.


I would likely play Ah Jh very similarly here. I can't raise your initial bet to freeze out the field, but will certainly jam once people are committed. Ah Qh is a little less likely since I raise that UTG. (I only limp with AQo in these loose games. In tighter games, I reverse this pattern.)


Ah haa! The river fills me up with the 7. I bet out since it is obvious that I have a full house (I noticed myself hesitating) and Shaw will have to call me anyways, and if he has hearts he probably won't bet.


Ah yes, the beautiful 7d. I get this nice warm fuzzy feeling inside just thinking of it. Unfortunately Jim bets into me, instead of check-raising my "hearts" like he was supposed to. So I only beat him up for two bets. Sigh...


P.S. #3: Interesting statistic: after many many hours of playing together that is the first time I've ever lost a showdown to Dave Shaw. In fact, I think we've had only two showdowns where the river was bet and the other called, and I won both with a hidden set. This is due to the fact that Shaw is of the ultra-tight school and I am of the ultra-don't-put-in-chips-if-Shaw-is-betting school of thought :) Also he tends to avoid me as well.


And gee, it only took a 1 outer to do the trick. :-)


I'm not sure how bad an overplay I made on the turn, although I think it is defendable. What is the opinion of the forumites??


Dave