Mucking AK Preflop

Just wondering, what does it take to get you to fold AK preflop? In the popular loose-passive small stakes game, a raise from many players means TT or better pairs, or AK. Still others only raise with QQ or better, etc., etc.


I muck AK with no hesitation against many of these players, but is this wrong. I figure with the raising requirements so tight, I am up against a solid hand or the same hand (in which case I am not likely to be up against anything).


Also, this extends to AKs. When one of these super-tight players raisese, I muck AKs, figuring it is no better than a suited ace in this spot, and not wanting to run into a dominating hand.


Am I playing too tight, or do other people muck AK too?

Hmmm.. I think mucking against only one raise is definately a mistake. Only AA would have you totally dominated, and KK would only dominate you if a K fell.


On the other hand, I don't usually raise with AK - unless it's suited and in good position.


When _would_ I muck AK? I would probably muck AK under either of these two conditions:


1) I am playing a tournament, the blinds are high, and there has been a raise and a reraise infront of me from tight players who probably would only reraise with KK or AA in that position. I just don't want to get involved in a situtation where I stand to loose my whole stack... Execptions would be if a) I was short stacked and desperate b) I was a huge stack and could afford to see if an ace fell and c) if the opponent is short stacked and trying to get all in on somthink like KQ right before the blind comes and forces him all-in.


2) In a ring game, I would only fold this hand if there was a raise, and then a reraise from a STRONG player, or a raise, and two reraises. Under these conditions, the best I can hope for in my opinion is that one of the raisers is holding AQ or AK - in which case one of my outs on my drawing hand is dead.


Certainly mucking AK _all_ the time just because someone raises is playing too tight... although I HAVE mucked AQ and AJ... On the OTHER hand - if you know for a _fact_ that the raiser only raises on big pocket pairs (JJ, QQ, KK, AA), get out - not only do you HAVE to flop a pair now, but there is almost a 50% chance he will have you totally dominated from the flop.


But, I am not an expert - I am sure many will disagree. I'm just a lowly low-limit holdem play trying to hold his own. :]


-chiem

You have AK. The opponent will raise ONLY with AA<3>, KK<3>, AKs<2>, or QQ<6>. If he has AA/KK <6> you are in real trouble. If he has AKs you are less than even-money <2>. If he has QQ you are a little better than even money. This is not a good situation.


But lets say the flop is A84. Now there is 1 hand that has you beat, 9 that you have beat, and 2 to tie. That's real good.


If the flop is K84 then there are 4 hands that have you beat, 2 that tie, and 6 that you have beat. That's fairly good.


So flopping a pair (about 1/3 of the time) results are good, but not flopping a pair (2/3) results are terrible.


Easy fold.


But the hard part is determining the raising standards of the opponent.


- Louie

If you know that the raising standards of the player are that tight (QQ-AA, AK), then you are correct to fold, esp. in heads-up play. Not only are you either way behind or a slight favorite, how much action are you likely to get from QQ if the flop comes A-7-3? (esp. from a player this tight).


However, in general AK is generally a hand that wants to see the flop. It's rare for me to fold it for one raise pre-flop.

I think you're playing way too tight. I don't know what "loose-passive small stakes" games you're playing in, but the regular $4-$8 games I play in see people raising and reraising preflop with just about anything under the sun. Sure, most of the regulars save their preflop raises for pairs (tens or better) and connected face cards (and occasionally Ax suited.) Your decision to play a hand pre-flop is based on your assessment of the preflop raiser(s) and other considerations. I say that you should *reraise* many of these players with AK and AKs.


Why? Lots of reasons. If you only raise/reraise preflop with AA and KK (which you should be doing,) you're too easy to figure out. Adding AK/AKs to this mix (the highest non-pair hand...and occasionally other hands, but pick your spots carefully and make sure you're in late position) makes it harder for players to put you on a premium pair before you see the flop. When the flop comes all low and you come out betting, they have to wonder if you're just betting overcards instead of an overpair...and they may throw in a call with top pair to keep you honest. Then you'll get paid off more when you do have AA or KK.


Let's say that you're in the cutoff with AKs. The UTG and two other regular players call the big blind, and the guy to your right raises. He's one of these "super-tight" players who will only raise with QQ or better. So you put him on a premium pair hand (read like a book.) In this case, I would smooth call (if I had AKo, I would most likely make it three bets and get to the flop...see how it is.) His raise and your call knock out the button, so you're in last position. The SB folds, the BB calls, and the rest of the players call. You're getting four other players in with you for two SB each to see the flop (and you're in last position, so you can fold if you don't like what you see.) This is a great situation for you.


The flop comes down A J 8 with one of your suit. IMPORTANT - there's only one way he can have AA. The players check to the preflop raiser, and he bets of course. You can raise and knock everyone out but the original bettor. This play is made even if you're not best at the moment to knock the other players out and give you a better chance to win the pot (maybe you just knocked out a drawing hand like T9 who's afraid of SuperRock making it three to go and you capping it.) If SuperRock folds, he knows his QQ or KK is no good. If he calls, you've probably got him beaten (he has AQ maybe?) If he reraises, you can most likely put him on AA or AK, and you can call because you're free-rolling on an AK with your backdoor flush possibility, call his turn bet, and call/raise on the river.


If the same flop comes with two of your suit, you can simply call his bet to get the other players to see the turn for a SB. Then you can call on the turn and call on the river (raise on the river if you made your flush and you're heads-up.)


Going back to the preflop play, let's say that no one called before SuperRock made his raise. You can smooth-call his raise (or reraise yourself to get heads-up with him)...and if everyone gets knocked out, you can see the flop for 3-4 SB. You can do this because you have position on him in this case, but you can do the same thing if you're in front. If you get the same flop (A J 9 or something similar...as long as you catch your A or K,) you can call his bets all the way to the river unless you improve into a raising hand (Q T show up for Broadway or you make your flush.) This play minimizes your losses if you're indeed up against AA (you have redraws and he needs the board to pair to fill up) and it gives you a great shot at winning the pot if he's bluffing with less than AK. Hell, maybe he's got AK and you're on a free-roll...worst you can do is split.


If my table was relatively tight and the preflop betting was capped before it even got to me, I may much AK (but not AKs...looking more for a flush draw than top pair.) Also, if I was in a tournament....play might be different...maybe I'm at the final table and wanting players to knock each other out. I may muck AK or AKs if there's a preflop raising war, hoping that one or more players will go all-in, lose, and bump me up for a higher finish.

Not too often. I am more likey to re-raise than to muck especially with AKs.