When will I learn?

[Mangatang]

It always hurts when you fold a winner on the river.

Loose, passive $1/2

I limp UTG with Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4 limpers, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets out, BB folds, I raise, MP makes it 3, SB and I call.

Turn: J /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets out again, I call (having picked up the open-ender), MP calls.

River: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets out again, I think, then I muck, MP calls. SB takes it down with 9 /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Arrgggg!!!

I was getting 12:1 on the river. Should I have made a crying call? If I had been last to act, I definitely would have called, but I didn't want to get trapped by a raise from the MP with the 4-straight on the board.

Thoughts?

[Ed Miller]

If I had been last to act, I definitely would have called, but I didn't want to get trapped by a raise from the MP with the 4-straight on the board.

People say this all the time, but it makes no sense. What's to get trapped? If he raises, you fold. There is no trapping. It's not like when there are more cards to come where you will have to call the extra bets.

The presence of a player behind you should affect your decision, but not because he might raise and "trap" you.

[Mangatang]

Wow. I never thought of it that way. If I'm willing to risk one bet at a crying call anyway, it doesn't matter if it might get raised (as long as I'm willing to fold to that raise if it comes). I wish I had this hand to do over now.

Thanks Ed.

[chesspain]

This is excellent advice. Unless you think that MP is a maniac who would attempt to raise this river into two players without at least a set, then calling and folding to a raise is the right play.

In addition, what makes you think that SB had Kx? For if he was holding a naked king, his flop bet would have been pretty wild, to say the least.

[Taxman]

First off, I think QTs UTG is a questionable call at best. Even with a loose passive field, you can't really like many flops considering that you're up front. Top pair will often get you in trouble, with a ten being preferable to a queen, the flush draw is ok, but higher flushes could be out there when lots of people are seeing the flop. And you're out of position the whole time.

As for the rest of the hand, this is where knowing at least a little about the players helps. If MP and SB are the types to take their hands too far, then a call is deffinately worth it. Of course MP does seem to be on a draw and there is only a straight draw out there (unless he was looking for a backdoor flush) You are of course, a little wary, but if you would call heads up, then you simply call and fold to a raise.

[MRBAA]

You can feel horrible about these crying calls, but not making them can be a huge leak especially at low limits. In this situation, you could make this type of call 10 straight times and lose every time. Then win the pot on the 11th and you'd be up two big bets. And in my experience any hand you think has a chance on the river is generally much less than a 10-1 dog when calling one more bet.

[Taxman]

I'm not sure if you're referring to my post directly or not, but I agree that you should call that last bet. Still on this board, if it is raised behind you I can't see how it's possible for you to have the winning hand 1 out of 50 times, much less 1 out of 10. Unless you're playing a total maniac or someone who has no ability to read the board whatsoever, there are just too many possiblities (given the action prior to the river) here for anyone to be crazy enough to bluff raise on the end.