Playing junk hands on the Button

[Nate tha' Great]

I've started to play very loose on the Button in small, unraised pots against unaggressive blinds in order to take full advantage of my position; hopefully I will come to my senses one day and compensate for this by being less vigorous with my blind defense (see 'Vanderjagt').

How low do you go?

Let's say you're playing in a passive game with favorable conditions: you have better postflop skills than your opponents, and the blinds are not aggressive. How many of the following situations would you call in?

1. 1 limper to you, you have 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

2. 3 limpers to you, you have T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

3. 1 limper to you, you have A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

4. 1 limper to you, you have 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

5. 2 limpers to you, you have K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

6. 2 limpers to you, you have 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

7. 3 limpers to you, you have K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

8. 1 limper to you, you have J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[Homer]

1) Call

2) Fold

3) Fold

4) Fold

5) Fold

6) Call

7) Call

8) Fold

-- Homer

[JohnShaft]

Hi Nate. Let me be honest, and I think some could accuse me as being as tight as a nun's knickers, but I wouldn't play any of them.

All players involved would have to be stupid bad for me to think about playing these hands.

Am I too tight? Maybe.
Do I think some people who think that some other peoples play is too tight are actually too loose (mostly due to a lack of "folding discipline")? Absolutely.

I think it's MUCH easier to play a -EV hand thinking it's +EV than it is to not play a +EV hand thinking it's -EV.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's MUCH easier to play a -EV hand thinking it's +EV than it is to not play a +EV hand thinking it's -EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think most of these hands are close to 0 EV.

I'll play them some of the time because I think I play better and stay more alert when I'm playing a little bit loose, and this is a situation (one bet, A+ position) in which playing a little bit loose isn't going to hurt you very much.

Then again, some could accuse me of being as loose as a Catholic school girl.

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
I think most of these hands are close to 0 EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right Nate. But I think the overiding factor is the game you're in.

If you're at .50/1 Party they probably are noticeably +EV, but if you're at 5/10 UB they're probably noticeably -EV.

There's got to be a pretty large gap in the EV of all hands in the contrasting two games. I think that is by far the overiding factor.
As such I think it's very, very hard to state the +/- EV on such hands, independent of general game conditions.

[SinCityGuy]

1. fold (need 3 limpers)
2. fold
3. fold
4. fold (need 3 limpers)
5. fold
6. fold (need 3 limpers)
7. borderline call (I hate Kx suited, but it's probably close to even EV with three limpers. Ax suited would be a definite call here).
8. fold

[Analyst]

At cardrooms that charge a button-rake, like the ones around San Jose, the rules change considerably. For example, at 6/12 the button only needs to pay 1/2 bet in an unraised pot. With these conditions, I'd stay for most - probably all - of these hands although hands 5 and 8 still seem a bit marginal. You mainly need to know how to get away from them if the flop doesn't hit.

[bdypdx]

With the conditions you describe, I agree with Homer, although I waver just a bit with #1. The flop is cheap and all of the hands are easy to drop with no flop help. If the flop helps, I'll play better than the opponents and that's the key.

As for #7, there is a very similar hand example in the loose games section of HEFAP on page 163. But the conditions for playing it are critical to success.

bdy

[TripDuck]

1. 1 limper to you, you have 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Call. I like the chances of suited connectors like this if I think I can get away with it for a single bet.

2. 3 limpers to you, you have T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Fold. What are you really expecting to flop here? I hate this hand unsuited. Suited, yes.

3. 1 limper to you, you have A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Coin flip. Generally, no. It really depends on who the limper is.

4. 1 limper to you, you have 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Call. I love pocket pairs, even low pocket pairs on the button. I'd call deuces, too.

5. 2 limpers to you, you have K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Coin flip again, but even less so that A 7 unsuited.

6. 2 limpers to you, you have 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Fold. 2 gapped low suited connectors are horrible here.

7. 3 limpers to you, you have K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Call. Depends on mood more than anything rational. Also, for some reason I like K 7 suited.

8. 1 limper to you, you have J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Fold. Looking for what? T 9? A Jack? Poo on that.

[HajiShirazu]

I don't think I'm good enough postflop to play any of those hands and expect +EV. I might play the K7s. Maybe there are people who are, but I'm not sure. I don't see much value in any of them in the given situations.

[ropey]

With 1 limper to me, I'm definately not calling with anything...I would consider raising (depending on the limper) with hands like 67s, A7, and 33...in a passive game as you described I'm thinking there is a good chance to get the pot heads up.

Start adding additional limpers and I'm folding pretty much all of these...however, there is something that is just appetizing about the 64s with 2 limpers.

-ropey

[Nate tha' Great]

I was going to make a joke that you'd advocate raising with all of these premium holdings. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'll sometimes raise Axo on the Button with exactly one limper, provided that the x is at least 7. Playing "any ace" seems oh so fishy, but A7o is a decent heads up hand given position.

I've also tried that play with some small pockets but haven't liked my results and think I'll just muck them now since they're more difficult to play h/u.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
I was going to make a joke that you'd advocate raising with all of these premium holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not all of them. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I've also tried that play with some small pockets but haven't liked my results and think I'll just muck them now since they're more difficult to play h/u.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you can get a hand heads up with a pocket pair against one limper, you will win a lot of money...you will have the best hand a big percentage of the time. Of course, this is yet another situation where your pair of 3's doesn't mean to much.

-ropey

[gonores]

1. 1 limper to you, you have 76s .

Fold

2. 3 limpers to you, you have T9o

Fold

3. 1 limper to you, you have A7o
4. 1 limper to you, you have 33

Both very situational dependent. I'd say probably about 50/50 raise or fold with A7, dependent on weakness of everyone in the hand. I'd raise 33 more often if I was pretty sure I could get it heads-up.


5. 2 limpers to you, you have K9

Fold

6. 2 limpers to you, you have 64s

Little fear of a blind raise? Call

7. 3 limpers to you, you have K7s

Limp

8. 1 limper to you, you have J8o

Fold

[el_grande]

I'm getting just about enough hands (almost 5,000) in PokerTracker to warrant a review of my play and let me tell you...

I am not liking small suited cards. Nearly every small suited connector or one-gap has been a looser for me. I haven't looked in detail yet but I think its because I nearly always fold on the flop or turn because the hand doesn't become strong.

Makes me really believe I need at least 4 callers and be in the CO or button to play these.

[Nottom]

Heres my answers, I'm sure many will disagree

1. 1 limper to you, you have 76s . - Raise or Call

2. 3 limpers to you, you have T9o - Call

3. 1 limper to you, you have A7 - Fold or Raise

4. 1 limper to you, you have 33 - Raise or Fold.

5. 2 limpers to you, you have K9o - fold.

6. 2 limpers to you, you have 64s - Call.

7. 3 limpers to you, you have K7s - Call.

8. 1 limper to you, you have J8 - fold.